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Which to treat first: adrenals, thyroid or methylation cycle?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by RosieBee, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Do you know it this is also true of R-Lipoic Acid?
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Alpha lipoic acid consists of S lipoic acid and R lipoic acid. R lipoic acid is the active form so either way you're using R lipoic acid. R lipoic acid supplements are just the isolated active part of alpha lipoic acid.
  3. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Zinc lowers thyroid levels. I would take zinc before I took more peripheral stuff as zinc is not a workaround but is actually reuquired to produce thyroid hormone. It acts like a dial to turn the thyroid up. The thyroid actually needs zinc, copper, tyrosine, iodine, selenium, and possibly manganese. I believe one shoudl supplement the required nutrients before branching out to more indirect ones. Carnitine is very important to supplement if you have an OVERactive thyroid as that will cause your body to burn through carnitine at a ferocious rate and it is running out of carnitine that causes the muscle wasting. alpha-lipoic acid, a powerful antioxidant, is always a good thing to take as antioxidants make any situation just a bit or a whole lot better, without actually curing anything. However alpha lipoic acid greatly lowers blood sugar. I cannot tolerate more than 100mg/day. When I tried 600mg, the dose for diabetes in Germany, I had 3 or more horrific low blood sugar attacks per day. Generally if you have a less than optimally functioning adrenal gland, be careful of alpha lipoic acid.
  4. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I'm not sure I believe that zinc lowers thyroid levels. The literature seems to be mixed (or using a VERY high dose of zinc).

    I do agree that one should supplement missing nutrients first though but I personally think zinc is very important both for the function of the glucocorticoid receptors and thus the immune system as a whole.

    I've also had good luck with ALA (I take 300 mg of sustained release twice a day) and I have no functioning adrenals. I actually wish it would lower my blood sugar more!

    Ema
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I am not relying on studies regarding the zinc, but on observation of myself. If you have allergies you would never notice the effect unless you take VERY high doses of zinc (75-150mg/day). At the point whebn you get enough, you can breathe. And you will find that the lack of HCL (which causes acid food craving and loose stools (and by that I only mean a bit mushy)) caused by lack of zinc goes away immediately upon such a dose of zinc. The dry skin goes away too, noticeably.

    I find your good luck with ALA extraordinary. You say you wish it would lower your blood sugar? Are you then diabetic? Because that is exactly what it is supposed to treat at that dose. But me, I am hypoglycemic. And when I take it it drives my blood sugar into the bottom basement...I am so shakey it is worse than a drug adict, and I do not take it spread out but all at once, yet it affects my blood sugar all day thus. I can eat and make the low blood sugar go away for a short time but in an hour or so it's back! So I am just warning folks that if you have low blood sugar (mine is low because of weak adrenals...I don't know why that doesn't make yours low? And DHEA, an adrenal hormone, takes care of undeserved low blood sugar for me) then ALA can be a serious problem. It is VERY good for you so worthwhile exploring your tolerance. I can take 100mg as long as I am not suffering adrenal problems (such as during allergy season).
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    What do you consider a very high dose of zinc?
    I though ALA was supposed to be bad for the thyroid, not adrenals.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Some people here have reported success with carnitine supplementation, but if you're concerned about your thyroid Rich seemed to think improving methylation would help increase carnitine levels naturally.
    I just want to note that several studies have shown that carnitine is low in ME/CFS. I think the reason is that methylation is required to make carnitine in the body. One of the main roles of carnitine is to usher fatty acids into the mitochondria of cells to be burned as fuel. In the urine organic acids test results that many people have posted or sent to me, I usually find that the fatty acids markers are showing buildup of omega oxidation of fatty acids, which occurs when there is a carnitine deficiency. Under these conditions, it makes sense that your muscles would respond to carnitine supplementation, since it raises the supply of fuel to their mitochondria. When the methylation cycle partial block has been lifted, the cells should be able to make enough carnitine for themselves.

    SAMe is produced in the methylation cycle and is the main supplier of methyl (CH3) groups for a large number of methylation reactions in the body, including the methylation of DNA and the biosynthesis of creatine, carnitine, phosphatidylcholine, coenzyme Q10, melatonin and epinephrine. This measurement is made in the red blood cells because the level there reflects an average over a longer time and is less vulnerable to fluctuations than is the plasma level of SAMe.

    Best regards,
    Rich
  8. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I'd have to go back to find the study to see the amount they used exactly. All I remember thinking was that it was a very high amount!

    I think the general recommendation is for no more 50 mg of zinc/day. However, I'm not sure if they are referring to the amount of elemental zinc or the total. I am also not sure that would apply if one has a zinc deficiency. However, given the testing is so poor, it is difficult to accurately assess zinc status in the body so a fair bit of this is guesswork, trial and error and trying to do new things without causing a bunch of damage.

    I personally take about 60 mg of a zinc chelate a day so I assume my elemental zinc intake is less than 50 mg. RichvanK told me that alkaline phospatase was dependent on zinc so that level may be a good indication of zinc status. Mine has come up a little but still remains well under midrange.

    Ema
  9. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi Ema

    If their general recommendation is for no more than 50 mg's of zinc/day, I'm pretty sure they are referring to "elemental" zinc.

    For example I'm looking at a bottle of zinc picolinate and it says...

    Zinc (from zinc picolinate) 50mg

    The 50 is elemental zinc.
  10. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I think so too.

    I think the same is true for potassium as well with the RDA of 3500 mg...but it sure makes it confusing trying to figure out how much to take!
  11. I have taken Armour and/or T3 for 15 years and have only just realised I have a B12 problem. I am taking Jarrows Methyl 5000mcg and feeling better already. I dont think I have PA, but probably low stomach acid due to anti-parietal antibody's

    Should I be looking at Fredd's Active b12 protocol or richvank's methylation protocol - I am getting very confused reading both.

    Thanks
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    The quality of Jarrow's methylcobalamin has gotten much worse. If you switch to a good brand of methylcobalamin like Enzymatic therapy you'll probably need less (maybe much less), but that's good that you're experiencing benefit from it. Once you start taking methylfolate (and additional methyl donors if you're following Freddd's protocol), you're probably going need to lower your dose of methylcobalamin. The main difference between Rich and Freddd's protocol is the dosages. Rich recommends lower dosages than Freddd. I don't know which will work better for you.
  13. Diana S.

    Diana S.

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    By "lower" thyroid levels, do you mean go toward hypothyroid or hyperthyroid?
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't really know too much about the specifics. I'm not sure lower was the right word. I'll just post what I found and if someone else has something to add or interpret the data that would be good.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1815532
    Effect of alpha-lipoic acid on the peripheral conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine and on serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels.

    Abstract

    The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (LA, thioctic acid, CAS 62-46-4) on thyroid hormone metabolism and serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels was investigated. In the first setup of experiments administration of LA together with thyroxine (T4) for 9 days suppressed the T4 induced increase of T3 generation by 56%. This suppression was similar to that affected by 6-propylthiouracil (54%). LA or T4 alone did not affect the cholesterol level, but together they led to a reduction. LA decreased the triglyceride level by 45%; the decrease induced by T4 or LA plus T4 was not significant. Total protein and albumin levels decreased by LA plus T4 treatment when compared to the LA control. The slight increase in glucose level by LA or T4 alone was not observed when they were administered together. In the second setup of experiments the administration of T4 for 22 days increased the serum T3 level 3-fold. When LA was combined with T4 and the treatment continued, the T3 production decreased by 22%. T4 reduced cholesterol level by 30%, and LA plus T4 further reduced it by 47%. The triglycerides were not affected. A moderate decrease in total protein was observed after treatment with T4 plus LA; T4 and LA plus T4 decreased the albumin level. The decrease in serum glucose by T4 recovers by LA treatment. These results demonstrate that LA interferes with the production of T3 from T4 when it is co-administered with T4. The elevated level of T3, after T4 administration, is reduced by treatment with LA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
    -------------------------------------------
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15591013
    Effects of carnitine on thyroid hormone action.

    Abstract

    By experiments on cells (neurons, hepatocytes, and fibroblasts) that are targets for thyroid hormones and a randomized clinical trial on iatrogenic hyperthyroidism, we validated the concept that L-carnitine is a peripheral antagonist of thyroid hormone action. In particular, L-carnitine inhibits both triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T4) entry into the cell nuclei. This is relevant because thyroid hormone action is mainly mediated by specific nuclear receptors. In the randomized trial, we showed that 2 and 4 grams per day of oral L-carnitine are capable of reversing hyperthyroid symptoms (and biochemical changes in the hyperthyroid direction) as well as preventing (or minimizing) the appearance of hyperthyroid symptoms (or biochemical changes in the hyperthyroid direction). It is noteworthy that some biochemical parameters (thyrotropin and urine hydroxyproline) were refractory to the L-carnitine inhibition of thyroid hormone action, while osteocalcin changed in the hyperthyroid direction, but with a beneficial end result on bone. A very recent clinical observation proved the usefulness of L-carnitine in the most serious form of hyperthyroidism: thyroid storm. Since hyperthyroidism impoverishes the tissue deposits of carnitine, there is a rationale for using L-carnitine at least in certain clinical settings.
  15. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I wonder what ALA does to thyroid levels when thyroid hormones aren't being taken exogenously? Does it work the same?

    It seems that taking T4 would indicate a degree of hypothyroidism already. I wonder how they are certain that it isn't hypothyroidism causing reduced peripheral conversion vs the ALA?

    Maybe looking at the full study will clear this up. I'll try to pull it for the library.

    Ema
  16. UM MAN

    UM MAN

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    I read the abstract on ALA.... What kind of scientific study fails to list the doses used??????
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    dbkita is taking R lipoic acid even though he's been treating hypothyroid. I hope he can comment on this because I don't understand the terminology very well. I assume he's aware of the studies using alpha lipoic acid.
  18. LouiseSB

    LouiseSB

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    I'm a fluoroquinolone toxicity survivor who was prescribed ALA/NAC (1200mg/each) in addition to methylation support. Three weeks into the regimen, I became very shaky and wired. I thought it was the the methyl B's but then started researching the other supps. Anyway, I've been off all of them for a month and am now hypoglycemic. I'm on a low sulfur diet for suspected CBS (strips indicate >800). Has anyone had this occur and if so, has it resolved on its own? Thanks.
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Alpha lipoic acid and NAC could cause problems if you have mercury toxicity. Methylation supplements can also cause a lot of problems for some people. Some people need to start at a very low dose for methylation.
  20. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I requested the full text of the study. I'll post it when it comes in.
    RosieBee and Little Bluestem like this.

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