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Which to treat first: adrenals, thyroid or methylation cycle?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by RosieBee, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. RosieBee

    RosieBee

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    I am a newbie to this forum, but I have been dealing with ME for 20 years. I hope that someone here can give me a little advice, as I have found out that now I need to support my thyroid.

    I am trying to decide where to go from here.

    1) Thyroid
    2) Adrenals
    3) Methylation cycle.


    My Dr recently started me on Thyrioxine (TSH 5.5), but I reacted badly to that and little improvement with natural dessicated thyroid (NDT).

    It seemed that my adrenals were already compromised. 24 hr adrenal profile showed significantly high cortisol levels throughout the day with low DHEA, suggesting adrenal stress.

    I had wanted to start the methylation protocol, but was holding off until I had stabilised the thyroid.

    Should I stabilise the adrenals first, then introduce thyroid support and later complete the methylation protocol?

    It seems that if you tweak one system it has knock-on effect with other systems.

    Cheers
    RosieBee
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    from what i have read, do the adrenals first as this can sometimrs fix thyriod issues, also test reverse t3, look into getting cortisol down with supps like phosphatidylserine. and try get dhea up but do it slowly 10mg increments, also if need to medicate to get good sleep.
  3. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    I use this for adrenal support and have found definite improvement http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Adrenal-Cortex-60-Veggie-Caps/18706?at=0. I couldn't see any problems with using that along with a methylation protocol, maybe try either on it's own first for a week or two though so you know if you are reacting badly or not. I'm not a trained health professional so any advice is just the opinion of a fellow sufferer!
  4. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    I too have just been diagnosed with high night time cortisol.

    To get cortisol down, the following are recommended: Rhodiola, Phospatidylserine, Ashwagandha, Holy Basil/Tulsi and REishi Mushroom. Ive done quite a comprehensive google search today and even Dr Oz recommends several of these for lowering cortisol.

    Valium is also used to reduce cortisol but having taken a 1/4 of a 5mg tablet, I am still reeling 3 days later and wont be going down that path again any time soon. Xanax is supposed to be effective and is a 'newer' drug than valium but I decided to try a more natural route. I am just ordering the above from iherb as we speak!

    MEditation, yoga and other stress relievers are de rigour also in reducing cortisol.

    If your cortisol is high you must get that down. That can be done in tandem with general adrenal support however the cycle needs to be broken and focus on reducing cortisol.

    I will keep in touch and let you know how I go.

    I dont see any harm in trying to attack both methylation and adrenals at the same time. I would have further thyroid testing done too as TSH is not sufficient on its own. A test for iodine doesnt go astray either as this plays a major role in thyroid functioning and health.

    I have heard that phosphatidylserine is very good mixed with D-ribose.

    I would like to ask, although this may be a subject for a stand-alone thread, has anyone tried the "awesome foursome" treatment? The four are: l carnitine, d ribose, magnesium and CoQ10. These are essential to the ATP cycle and fundamental to cellular energy metabolism.

    I note that Freddd recommends Lcarnitine fumarate and i would like to clarify its superiority over Acetyl l carnitine. Fredd also recommends d ribose as a 'possibly critical cofactor'.

    Bst
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Carnitine, Q10, and magnesium all seem to help me, but I had absolutely no difference when I added d-ribose to the mix. No improvement, no worsening, no "detox", not even a slightly odd feeling.
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    According to Rich Vank, treating the methylation cycle may correct the thyroid and adrenal problems. The problem is not enough glutathione in the hypothalmus and pituitary for them to sending the proper signals to the adrenals. If the adrenals aren't working properly that affects the thyroid.

    Valium and Xanax are both diazepams and are highly addictive. These should be strictly avoided if at all possible. Once you're hooked, it may take months or years to gradually taper back off. They cause rebound anxiety which is why they're so hard to get off of.

    Relora is supposed to be as effective as Seriphos to lower cortisol, but cheaper. I'm currently doing Relora for extremely high day and night cortisol and can attest to it's effectiveness.
  7. endomeister

    endomeister

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    I agree with this response. I would start with methylation / transulfuration pathways corrections as these affect everything else downstream.

    I'll add that correcting any estrogen/testosterone/progesterone/other hormone imbalances can help, also.

    Thyroid comes last.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Valentijn,

    If D-Ribose is to have a chance to be effective if it is going to be, it needs to come at the end of adenosylb12, l-carnitine fumarate, Alpha Lipoic Acid. Then D-Ribose would be taken after exercise to help restore (recycle) the used ex-ATP back to ATP. If the mito are not turning out ATP not much of it to recycle. If not exercised might not be enough ex-ATP to recycle to notice.
  9. RosieBee

    RosieBee

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    Thanks everyone for such a great response. It seems that getting the cortisol down and supporting the adrenals should be my first priority. Lots of great suggestions there, thanks. Then I can get started on the methylation cycle which should help both the adrenals and thyroid. Cheers.
  10. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Rosie

    As Im in the same boat as you, I would suggest considering starting methylation simultaneously with lowering cortisol as I believe at teh end of the day, its getting methylation working properly that is the key driver (for many) as its the only way to get glutathione up again (and its the lack/depletion of glutathione that causes a lot of the ME symptoms). So in essence, I agree with caledonia "According to Rich Vank, treating the methylation cycle may correct the thyroid and adrenal problems." and endomeister 'I would start with methylation / transulfuration pathways corrections as these affect everything else downstream." but with the following caveat:

    Having said that, something that has been diagnosed such as high night time cortisol needs to be addressed as its part of a vicious cycle and the high cortisol on its own exacerbates many ME symptoms.

    I say key driver, as with ME the problem is usually a combination of several areas - not surprising when you think about it as the body struggles on for a long time in sub-optimal conditions until 'the straw that breaks the camels back' happens and then the whole thing collapses - not literally of course! just that a few systems/processes that have been running on empty finally crash. Its like the cogs that make a watch work - there are many and methylation may be the biggest/main cog but with ME there are usually a few processes that have crashed. Methylation goes a long way to getting the system operating again and for a lucky few, thats all thats required. For the rest of us, its a start and we need to solve the rest.

    For me, it has been a struggle in getting some test results that indicate something is out of whack. Most come back relatively good. That in itself is not surprising as many of the bio chemical processes are either not adequately tested or testing has to be done via private functional pathology testing (that's the case here in Australia although it appears to me that it is the case in the US too) so as soon as a test (such as the cortisol saliva test) come back with any abnormal finding, ofcourse I will address that swiftly. (For me, there are no parasites etc etc although a number of my good gut bacteria are deficient and I am working on rebuilding these populations. Rich Vank also supports the view that gut issues often prevail with ME patients.

    Please do your own research as I am just beginning in the area of cortisol management but the herbs that I listed in my first post appear to the common ones that are nearly always agreed upon (even by Dr Oz - lol! as I stated earlier).

    I quickly looked into Relora which was mentioned above as I have not heard of this before. Relora is a patent blend of Phellodendron amurense and Magnolia officinalis. These are used in Traditional Chinese Medicine. Magnolia officinalis is known as magnolia bark and was mentioned in many of the articles I researched yesterday and was on my list but I dropped it in my first post above. I dont know much about Phellodendron amurense but googling it only brings it up in relation to its presence in Relora and on its own has more antibacterial properties. I would say the key ingredient for cortisol reduction in Relora is the magnolia bark and that can be ordered on its own. Relora is made by a number of brands and can be purchased on iherb. I now have to decide whether to add it my iherb order or stick with my original list.

    All these decisions are debilitating for a PWC!

    Good luck!
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I would go along with the idea of starting up methylation first with all the rest following. As mb12/metafolin will start up methylation in 24 hours or less withg essentially 100% certainty, confiming that with low potassium from cell formation within a few days, hundreds of symptoms can resolve in the next year leaving a much smaller set of problems to deal with that are far cleared because the mb12/adb12/Metaffolin healing will make seeing the remaing problems much simpler.
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    The only concern with some herbs is if one has a salicylate intolerance or sensitivity -- which can happen if one has problems with sulfation or is low in glycine -- salicylates can cause overstimulation in many areas, negating any stress-lowering affect, and certainly disturbing sleep/rest.

    Also, many folks have had 'extreme' reactions when starting the methylation supplements, including myself, so I would personally recommend you start with very low doses and 'up' them very slowly. Especially if you have high cortisol issues...

    Just my two cents! :)
  13. RosieBee

    RosieBee

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    OK, Methylation cycle first ..... I must admit this feels the right way to go about it. Perhaps the adrenals and thyroid may improve a bit along with improving the methylation cycle. I am waiting for some tests and supplements before I get started. I shall take it very slowly to try and reduce the unpleasant symptoms. Thanks a lot folks for such a lot of detailed and really interesting advice.
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, RosieBee.

    You mentioned that your cortisol is high. In the simplified treatment protocol, for high cortisol I suggest including the phosphatidylserine complex. For low cortisol, I suggest using lecithin instead.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  15. RosieBee

    RosieBee

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    Thanks Rich,

    Yes I was looking forward to using the phosphatidylserine to see if it helps to lower the cortisol ... then maybe I can get some better quality sleep.

    Cheers
    RosieBee
  16. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    Have you done a stool test, CDSA, to rule out leaky gut syndrome?
  17. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    If you have high cortisol with low DHEA, I would consider using a DHEA supplement as it can lower cortisol levels in this case. However, I would start at a very low dose (5 mg) and increase slowly. In my opinion, many people take much higher doses of DHEA than useful or necessary. Hope that helps! Ema

  18. RosieBee

    RosieBee

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    Hi Catseye: No I haven't done those tests. I had a gut fermentation profile test that showed up a candida problem, but no bacterial overgrowth. I reran the test after I followed a successful anti-candida protocol and it showed up zero for candida; and it certainly helped resolved some symptoms, IBS for instance.
  19. RosieBee

    RosieBee

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    Thanks Ema for the advice. I have just got back the latest adrenal stress profile and it now shows me as having LOW cortisol!

    Waking: 18.8 (12-22)
    Noon: 4.1 (5-9)
    Afternoon: 3.9 (3-7)
    Evening: 1.0 (1-3)

    DHEA: am: 0.17 (0.2-0.7)
    pm: 0.15
    DHEA: Cortisol ratio 0.58 (0.6-3)

    I trialed thyroixine last October and it knocked me for six; slight improvement with natural thyroid in December (that is when I did the previous adrenal stress profile that showed up very high cortisol).

    I think taking the thyroid either unmasked an underlying adrenal problem, causing me overactivity with the adrenals, or I was suffering from RT3 build up ... or both. I whacked on loads of weight and my sleep pattern has totally gone out of kilter, rarely getting to sleep now before 4.0 am. Still not got back to where I was last October.

    So I have stopped all medications, waiting for an amino acid profile test result so I can start on the methylation protocol when the supplements arrive. I think I shall see if that helps heal thyroid/ adrenals. I am a little wary of taking too many supplements for too many different reasons.

    I am just trying to work out the basic minimum supplements I should take to support the methylation protocol. Any suggestions folks?
  20. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi Rosiebee, i had a similar problem with thyroxine (my TSH wasnt as high as your tho - it was diagnosed as subclinical hypothyroidism by my M.E doctor) The doctor who prescribed it said that my test results didnt move much after a while on it so we upped the dose and i got hyperthyroid symptoms immediately, even tho my bloods werent budging. I also piled on a lot of weight which has never budged (we were hoping it would help with the endless weight gain) In the end i had to stop it as it wasnt doing anything a t alower dose, my
    Dr explained that intolerance to thyroxine could be caused by either
    1. Adrenal problems, in which case you need to address this first.
    2. a heavy metal build up (i think in the heart? she qouted me some research about this but i forgot it)

    I am now trying to work on adrenals with my medical herbalist, am thinking about doing a 24 hour adrenal/cortisol test.

    Good luck with it all! Justy.

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