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Which Thorne B-complex is best?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Dreambirdie, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    is there much difference between thornes and jarrows B-right?
     
  3. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    B-right is b-wrong now, according to folks here, but I can't remember why....

    I think it might have folic acid in it, which is a BIG no-no.

    I am looking at Thorne B-complex #6 as a good option. To see what's in it, scroll down and have a look. (It didn't work to copy and paste.)

    http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-B-Complex-6-60-Veggie-Caps/18129

     
    alice likes this.
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    yes, i didnt notice that, almost hidden in the fine print.
    B right- Folate (from folic acid and Quatrefolic (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate glucosamine salt)
    thorne- Folate (100 mcg as Calcium Folinate and 100 mcg as 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate from Methyltetrahydrofolic Acid, Glucosamine Salt)
     
  5. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

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    JarrowsB-right also has some titanium dioxide in it,as do many medications and supplements.(My beloved stablon).
    This seems to be causing some concern lately.

    Wiki has this to say,' Studies have also found that titanium dioxide nanoparticles cause inflammatory response and genetic damage in mice'.[51][52.
     
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  6. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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  7. alice

    alice Senior Member

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    Most of the Vitamin B Complex now have methyl or hydroxy cobalamin B12 and they have the folate rather than the folic acid.
    My question is that if the capsule has 400 mcg methycobal or hydroxcob and the 400 mcg of folate do you still take the B12 lozenges sublingually, and also take additional Metafolin?
    I noticed that Thorne #6 has a lesser amount of B12 and Folate, so additional supplementation would be prudent, but Pure Encap has the 400/400 mcg for B12 and folate.
    I'm trying to find ways to not have to take so many separate supplement. Thanks.
     
  8. alice

    alice Senior Member

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    Right now I am taking Douglas Labs B-complex. It also contains 20 mg Intrinsic Factor (porcine), which it says is important for optimal vitamin B12 absorption. Any thoughts on importance ofthe Intrinsic Factor?

    http://www.douglaslabs.com/pdf/pds/200765.pdf
    alice
     
  9. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Alice--Sometimes this all seems so complicated. I think we all know far too much. :nerd::ill:

    Personally, I would not want to eat porcine intrinsic factor :p, but it you are okay with it, then I won't stop you.

    As for the B12 and folate in the B complexes, I doubt if very much of that is absorbed. I think the sublinguals are necessary for getting any reasonable amount of B12 and folate into your system. But on the other hand, some people are so hyper sensitive, that they might be fine with the small, less absorbable B12 and folate.

    It's highly individual when it comes to which supps works best for a given person. All you can do is try them and see for yourself.
     
  10. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    Yes, most still have to supplement b12 lozenges and extra metafolin. The b12 in the multi is not well absorbed in the stomach. And 400mcg is not enough metafolin for most. It sucks, but you have to take a lot of supplements. My wife was taking all cofactors for the first year (so about 15 things) but now stays healthy with mostly just 5. Adb12, mb12, metafolin, LCF, and multi b.

    I slowly would drop things off or forget to reorder them and have gone to just those 5. I would still start out with all the cofactors and drop them off one by one after healing is complete.
     
    alice likes this.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I wouldn't worry too much about the amount of B12 in a b complex. While it's true that for most people absorption of b12 in the gut is sufficient for their needs, for many of the people here that isn't enough which is why most people take their B12 sublingually (holding the tablet under the tongue or between the lower or upper lip and gum) rather than orally (chewing/swallowing the tablet). Absorption in the gut for B12 is much lower than sublingually. However, there is one company which includes Intrinsic Factor in their B complex to improve absorption of B12 in the gut.
    http://www.pureformulas.com/bcomple...ouglas-laboratories.html#sthash.DnlDBXbI.dpbs
    The Neurological Health Formula which Rich recommends also has intrinsic factor, but the b vitamin dosages in that multivitamin might be lower than what many people are looking for. It's also worth mentioning that he dosage of methylfolate in the Douglas Laboratories' b complex might be too high for some people. If anyone is taking a supplement with intrinsic factor, it would be good to take it at the same time as your B12 sublingual as that will give you a second chance to absorb some of the B12.
     
    alice likes this.
  12. alice

    alice Senior Member

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    Could you explain a little about co-factors please?
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I assume that's everything in Freddd's protocol except folate, B12, TMG, SAMe, and lecithin (lecithin contains choline which is a methyl donor). The cofactors in Freddd's protocol are all good supplements to take. Some of them address important issues such as mitochondrial function, ATP, and the Krebs Cycle. I'd recommend them to anyone with CFS and maybe even relatively healthy people. I'm taking all of them myself.

    However, they are not necessary for methylation. B12 and folate are what's needed for methylation. Some people might need additional methyl donors such as choline, SAMe, or TMG (betaine hcl functions the same as TMG). Others will find that adding additional methyl donors will overdrive the methylation cycle which should be avoided. Choline, SAMe, TMG, betaine hcl, phosphotidylserine (especially Seriphos which similar to PS, but more potent) all stimulate the BHMT pathway. While this might necessary in the beginning for some people, a different strategy might be needed later on. This from Rich
     
    alice likes this.
  14. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    I don't post much....I hope I hit the right button.....here goes 8-} (holding breathe)

    Hi Ema....Dreambirdie et al:
    Pure encapsulates B -complex w/metafolin is what I have been taking for 3 months. I've never had any problems. I order from pure formulas. I also like the polite, rapid service and perks.
    Pure Formulas 1-800-383-6008 @ http://pureformulas.com/bcomplex-pl...pure-encapsulations.html#sthash.d7ngbSKv.dpbs.
    They have no problems with phone orders which is how I prefer to place my orders. MON-FRI. ONLY on phone orders.

    They also have the best $ on NCLOil that I have found, so far. They give free shipping and RETURN. Also, an additional 10% off many items just mention to the CS rep. "NET10" (sorry, no disc. on the pure encapsulates B Complex.)
    I did not get my disc. once, I called, it was IMMEDIATELY returned to my CC. Please be aware of their REWARDS programs.
    A friend of mine ordered and forgot to use my rewards code
    RNBHEX;
    I called and mentioned it to them they immediately awarded me my rewards for her purchasing with them, NO HASSLES, all they asked for was her name. They also issue reward for any reviews that U may give an item that you use, if printed on their site. OK, so by now U know I am delighted with this company. I have no affiliation with pure encapsulates.
    My purpose of this message is strictly informative and a recommendation which I've never done in the past.
    If you use my rewards code RNBHEX I am very grateful. We all need all the assistance we can get and POSITIVE, heartfelt feedback which is what this is about
    Dreambirdie, I think I read you have sensitivities at times. That return policy comes in handy for that. They even sent me a return label.
    I also use puritans pride but you have to "watch the fillers". They offer a BOGO and at times buy1 get 2 free. on their own brand product. They had added LOTS of other brands recently. If placing a large order ask about free shipping they don't advertise it. I don't believe they have a rewards program. They do offer additional discounts an perks throught out the year to your email. Returns here are also accepted UP TO 1 YEAR (I'm almost positive) Also ask for a return label.
    I love Iherb.com as well but they don't take phone orders, for myself, it sometimes comes down to PRODUCT and $$$$$$$. JIC anyone is interested my rewards code @ iherb is WIZ397. I am sorry but I don't know about shipping to other countries on any of these companies.
    Happy healing Hugs, C
     
  15. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    YAY, I'm all growed up now, LOL
    @ Lotus, OK now???? MAYBE no more mistakes.

    Have a Blessed w/e everyone......gorgeous sun here....sending some your way JIC.
     
  16. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    My wife was able to effectively heal 90% of her symptoms in a few months with the 5 things I mentioned above and the basic co-factors. At the time (2.5 years ago), we were taking the "shotgun" approach where we just kept adding things until healing started. I think the recommended approach now may be to take all the basic cofactors for a few weeks, then titrate in the b12s, methylfolate, and LCF.

    The basic cofactors she took were vit A, D, E, C, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, Multi B, and Omega 3. We experimented with TMG, SAMe but never really saw a reaction with those. Potassium demand was very high with my wife. She had to take several dosages throughout the day early on and still constantly fought leg cramps. It was also unknown that we needed to avoid folic acid at that time, so we were unknowingly working against that.

    We slowly shed most of the cofactors over time (for convenience mostly) and my wife has maintained her "remission" status. If she goes multiple days without any supplementation, her symptoms come roaring back and will generally subside within a week of being back on the protocol.
     
    Xara, Little Bluestem and alice like this.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I assume you meant NEXT10;)
    Someone told me about puritan pride a few weeks ago, but I already buy food and supplements from 6 different stores so I didn't feel like dealing with it...until you mention BOGO:balloons::thumbsup:
     
    cph13 likes this.
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm not sure how I feel about Puritan's Pride anymore. I did a search for folinic acid and in the search results only folic acid showed up. I did find a b complex without folic acid or methylfolate. All it has is calcium folinate (aka folinic acid). It also has a combination of non-active and coenzymated/active/reduced forms for B1,B2, and B6. (P5P, R5P, etc.)
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/bcom.html

    They also have a multi with no folic acid or methylfolate (only calcium folinate/folinic acid). It also has coenzymated B1, B2, and B6. The multi has a few other interesting things such as krebs cycle chelates (fumarate, malate, citrate, succinate, and AKG). It has copper in it so I'm probably only going to take half a serving. Even though it's called "Multi Two" the amounts of the ingredients are for 2 tablets, but 4 capsules (kind of confusing).
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/two.html

    They also have a magnesium/malic acid supplement with B1, B2, and B6 (including P5P, R5P, and coenzymated B1), but no other B vitamins. For those who take their b vitamins separately (as I do), this makes it a little more simple since it takes care of three in one pill. Unfortunately, it has 5 mg of manganese (!) so I'll probably only take it once a day if I do buy it. Also, it does have magnesium carbonate which probably makes up a significant part of the magnesium content since they add malic acid and there's only 200 mg of glycine (meaning only a fraction is magnesium diglycinate).
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/minerals/myo-mag.html

    Actually, right now I don't need any more methylfolate or folinic acid (which can be converted into methylfolate). I already get at least 300-400 mcg of folate from my diet (which consists of both folinic acid and methylfolate.) I found a b complex with only 100 mcg folic acid per pill (instead of the standard 400 mcg) and it also has P5P and riboflavin phosphate (same as R5P). If anyone is interested, keep in mind the amounts listed are for two capsules
    http://www.iherb.com/Kirkman-Labs-B-Complex-with-CoEnzymes-Pro-Support-200-Capsules/44618

    I'm also taking another B complex with folic acid. It's a coenzymated B complex with active forms of B1, B2, B3, B6, and B12 (as adenosylcobalamin aka dibencozide). This also lists the amounts for two tablets rather than one. I might consider chewing them up for a bit because I'm not sure how much adb12 I want to take at this point.
    http://www.pureformulas.com/coenzym...-by-source-naturals.html#sthash.hRPvTVdv.dpbs

    BTW, folinic acid/calcium folinate probably isn't going to cause problems for most people here. In high doses it's probably more likely to contribute to overmethylation than block methylfolate. I'm basing this on what Rich says who was involved in a methylation study using both folinic acid and methylfolate. He explains this further:

    Calcium folinate (a form of folinic acid) is useable by most PWMEs. Folinic acid is a natural form of folate found in foods and folinic acid is part of the simplified methylation protocol. It's true that Freddd has found that folinic acid is detrimental in his case. I suspect that he has a mutation in his MTHFS enzyme (not to be confused with MTHFR). MTHFS is the enzyme that normally catalyzes the only reaction in the body that can convert folinic acid into another form (methenyl tetrahydrofolate) which in turn can be converted to other forms. If this enzyme is mutated so that its reaction is slow, folinic acid can build up if supplemented, and that inhibits the SHMT (serine hydroxymethyltransferase) reaction that hinders the feeding of one-carbon units into the folate metabolism, which are the source of the methyl groups blocking the formation of methylfolate. I think this is a rare mutation.

    I actually prefer including both folinic acid and 5-MTHF (methylfolate). 5-MTHF is the form needed by methionine synthase, which is the enzyme with the partial block. Many people's cells are able to convert folinic acid to 5-MTHF well, but many others have inherited genetic polymorphisms that slow this conversion down considerably. The polymorphisms in the MTHFR enzyme are a good example, and these are very prevalent in the population.

    It's true that folinic acid competes for absorption and transport into cells with methylfolate. However, it also offers advantages in that in most people it is able to support other folate reactions, while methylfolate cannot do so until it reacts with homocysteine to produce tetrahydrofolate. This is the reaction that is partially blocked in ME/CFS, and it takes some months to get it up to normal operation with this protocol.

    Some of the important folate reactions involved producing substances used in making new RNA and DNA for their multiplication, which is necessary for the production of new cells. During the period of time before the methionine synthase reaction gets going fast enough to supply tetrahydrofolate, which can be used to make other folates for these purposes. This is particularly important for blood cells and cells lining the intestine, which have relatively short lifetimes and need to be replaced. Another factor is that folinic acid is polyglutamated when it is inside the cells, and this can help to lower the amount of free glutamate, which is an excitotoxin. Excitotoxicity is a problem in CFS, and it is often exacerbated when methylation cycle treatment is entered upon.
     
  19. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    FYI for INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING. I just placed an order with Pure Encap (PE) They use an independent contractor to ship outside the US. The mgr. was happy to share that information. The SHIPPING company is Bangor Internationsal 201-683-4894.

    REWARDS and NEXT10
    Also if U accumulate rewards you have to redeem them to receive a coupon code; than place your order.
    If you use a rewards coupon code u CANNOT use the NEXT10. Only one discount per order. If you are ordering more than one item you can use your Reward Code than place a seperate order for the balance of your order and receive the "NEXT 10" discount. They are trying to change the system so one can use both codes selectively on the order cutting "their shipping costs" .
     
  20. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    TYPO ERROR
    In checking on this for International shipping the CS # for Bangor Internation is 203-683-4894.
    Your can just place the order online but I know some people would rather do this on the tele. Sorry for the TYPO
     

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