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which symptoms methylation made disappear for you?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by joshi81, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    hi i would like to make a sort of poll on this subject ... which symptoms exactly disappeared or diminished when started methylation protocols, be it fredd's or Rich or other?

    Muscle pain
    Fatigue
    Percieved muscular weakness
    Breathlessness
    PEM
    etc etc which one?
  2. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Good question Josh. I appear to have gotten methylation going for about 2 months now.

    Sleep quality has improved maybe 50% (have slept through the night 6 times recently; hadn't happened in years)

    PEM has improved about 50%

    Fatigue has improved about 30-40% (as long as I compensate for the various induced deficiencies)
  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    what is PEM?
  4. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    Post exertional malaise peter, anyway thanks to @helen1 i made this poll to see effectivly which are the common symptoms that, fixing methylation, improve or disappear.
    I would be very interested if someone with muscle pain or constant soreness improved on methylation protocol
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Josh,

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...y-deadlock-quartet-and-other-nutrients.27482/

    Look at the lists of symptoms. 100% of these listed have improved up to and including 100% gone, by people right here, and many of them were mine too.

    I had all the ones you mention and they are all gone and another 175 of the etc etc ones. Look at the lists.

    Methylation is half the answer. ATP and mitochondria is the other half of the answer. The deadlock quartet is 90% of the answer and another 30 or so factors make that possible.
  6. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    Thanks @Freddd i totally missed this post so thanks for posting ... at the moment on a day how much meb12, adob12 ,lc fumarate and metafoli do you take totally?
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    right now I am testing the Country Life and trying to find the most effective amount and mix.

    Country Life Methyl B12 - 90-120mg
    Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion - 10-20mg
    Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (capsules currently sublingual) - 10-20 mg
    Metafolin - 8-12 mg
    Drs. Best LCF - 1000mg (2 capsules)
    NatureMade SAM-e 800-mg

    I have CNS healing TURNED ON. I'm having the first improvement in my hands since before the glutathione disaster. I'm trying not to get my hopes up because having them dashed over and over is very hard on me.
  8. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @Freddd --> is it possible you have confused mcg with mg? 90-120mg of B12? That would be a dose for King Kong :D

    The Enzymatic + Anabol alone make 20-40mg, which is huge. I've probaby asked you this before. Can the body absorb all that much in a day?
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PeterPoitive,

    As it is taken through oral mucosa absorption, and I have experimented with multiple ways, the actual absorbed dose is about 1/4 to 1/3 of that. I take it as 3 2-3 hour doses. It is equivalent to 3x10mg subcutaneous injections, which currently around here cost $1000/month or more. I can do it through mucosal absorption for $300+/month. Yes, it gets absorbed and into the cerebral spinal fluid in sufficient amount for healing. Everybody I know who has had success at putting SACD in remission and even back it up considerably uses doses of this size. There is a small group trialing 500mg to1000mg a day. This is based on the Japanese trials that set the dose at 50mg/day for CNS penetration and they used a variety of methods. They also did intrathecal injections of 2.5mg MeCbl. It lasted in people from under 3 months to over 4 years so far. The benefits last as long as the amount remains high. Quite a variety of studies have shown that people with CFS, FMS, ALS, MS, Parkinson's, Supra Nuclear Palsy, Autism, Alzheimer's and probably others have low CSF cobalamin levels independent of body level. Further those diseases also typically have high CSF Hcy and/or high CSF MMA indicating breakdown in methylation and/or mitochondrial ATP formation to an extreme amount. Further there is documented neurological damage for instance in various parts of the brains and cord depending upon the specific diseases in many cases.

    Safety studies have been done to much higher levels in uremics who accumulate b12. The dose for correcting cyanide poisoning is multiple 35 gram (35,000,000mcg) infusions of HyCbl, AdoCbl or MeCbl. Because of shelf life they tend to use HyCbl as it is already "broken down" from the more active forms and can be left in a non-opaque IV bottle without further photolytic breakdown.

    In my own series of injection trials from 1mg to 60mg per injection, 3 times per day. I mapped where the amount becomes visible in the urine and how much so under various conditions of Methylfolate sufficiency, folic acid partial methylation block, folinic acid partial methylation block, low dose methylfolate with donut hole insufficiency and glutathione induced methyltrap. Some others replicated various parts of this and one man did infusions to 500mg.

    Further I found the CNS effectiveness starts in me at >6mg and <7.5mg. CNS effectiveness in me and some others requires 4x7.5mg SC injections daily, 3x10mg SC injections daily or 2x15mg SC injections daily (some, not everybody). The number we keep coming up with is 30mg distributed across the day to keep continuous CNS effectiveness going without daily fallback.

    I'm no King Kong, I've shrunk from 6'1" to 5'11" (disks etc) in the past 20 years, and weigh 185 in summer and about 200 winter when I get less exercise. Body size did not appear to make any real difference nor did gender in all this.

    And significant parts of my body are neuropathic slick so I can't even begin to match King Kong's hair. I can't even be a respectable hippy these days.
  10. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    so @Freddd you are taking something like 20 tablets of country life (1 is 5000 mcg) and 10-20 tablets of enzymatic therapy? argh.... this way a bottle of supplement last about 3 days :) is it right or i made wrong my calculation?
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Your calculations are spot on. I tend to order 20-30 bottles of things at a time.
  12. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    In re the original question:

    - canker sores, previously caused by acidic foods. I can eat pickles for the first time in my life!

    - brain fog is much less severe. I can read this forum :).
  13. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    I was curious, so I looked this up. The closest I could find was Cyanokit:
    (Source: http://www.rxlist.com/cyanokit-drug/indications-dosage.htm)

    Which is still a shit ton. A metric shit ton, even :).

    The PI also has interesting data on how this dose skews patient blood chemistry and for how long.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2014
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nila,

    I hadn't found any "kit". I was reading research The 35 gram was meant to last much longer than 15 minutes 5 grams in 15 minutes would end up with a theoretical approximate serum peak of 250,000,000 to 1,000,000,000pg/ml. That quantity would suck up the cyanide very quickly. Each mg of CN needs approximately 52mg of HyCbl to neutralize it. 100mg of cyanide (CN) would need 5.2 grams of HyCbl if 100% of the cobalamin reacted before the kidneys got it. At that concentration serum half life is probably 15-20 minutes. It will be interesting to read that.
    NilaJones likes this.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nila,

    I read the entire thing. It's good to see this. It also demonstrates how little they, the company, researchers or whoever wrote the piece, know about cobalamins. Thank you Nila.

    What I see is several fold. It can cause an acne type rash. That is no surprise as a 1mg injection does the same. Clearly there is a topping out in mg per hour of how much the kidneys can clear out vastly extending the serum half life. My own personal experience of red areas over SC injections is that there is no additional sensitivity to sun and is purely caused by the deep magenta color of the HyCbl showing through the skin Of course it colors the urine red for a sustained time. It is a side effect but I would hardly term it "SEVERE" as they term it. It is harmless except for colormetric measures of the urine. This gives enough info more or less that would allow me to model it well enough to calculate the ceiling clearance level range Most of the side effects appear to be massive methylation blockage and starvation of the brain of MeCbl and of the mitochondria of the AdoCbl. First the cyanide clears the MeCbl and AdoCbl out and then the massive HyCbl blocks the availability of MeCbl and AdoCbl and competes for methylation, for days or even weeks causing sustained methyltrap without cellular MeCbl present. High doses of HyCbl look like it would be very dangerous for me. Looking at the neurological effects it is inducing SACD and they note long term neurological effects (damage).

    They are not using normal HyCbl crystals but rather a form, "lyophilized hydroxocobalamin, pH adjusted with hydrochloric acid," (freeze dried, probably as microcrystals for rapid dissolution) that appears to allow it to be rapidly dissolved at a concentration, 1 gram per 50ml (25mg/ml) resultant which is normally time consuming and difficult.

    That they don't recognize the probable cause of the serious side effects as severe methylation block or methyltrap, MeCbl, AdoCbl and methylfolate deficiencies, very serious ones causing brain damage. The neurological lesions spoken of as MS like caused by the cyanide are possibly the result of methytrap that isn't then immediately relieved. Based on this I would say that a combo of MeCbl and AdoCbl would be a far safer alternative that would not leave the cyanide damage unreversed and continue the tissue starvation of MeCbl/AdoCbl for weeks. This is appalling.

    Thank you Nila for finding this. I used to think that large doses of HyCbl were harmless. Now I see the flaws of my thinking after seeing this. Holy mackerel as my father used to say. Large doses of HyCbl are far from harmless.

    Can you give me a link to the package insert?
  16. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Interesting!

    Any thoughts on why they didn't use those forms and/or include folate? Perhaps you ought to file a patent...

    I also found it fascinating that they did not include hypokalemia as a side effect. Somebody said the other day that it seems to be a ME-only response, and is not discussed on MTHFR forums. Do you know anything about why that would be?

    I don't know anything. I just found the link I posted by googling, when I was trying to figure out what you were talking about :).
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I also found it fascinating that they did not include hypokalemia as a side effect.

    That is an effect of starting methylation, not blocking it almost totally.


    Somebody said the other day that it seems to be a ME-only response, and is not discussed on MTHFR forums. Do you know anything about why that would be?

    I'm not sure exactly what they mean here. I suspect that ME has symptoms mainly of MeCbl deficiency in the CNS (brain and cord). In that case it really isn't all that involved in genetic variations of folate metabolism. That is my best answer if I am understanding what they mean. Basically it is a more pure set of MeCbl deficiency symptoms than folate related.

    Any thoughts on why they didn't use those forms and/or include folate?

    They use this because they have done research mainly on inactive cobalamins for the past 60 years because of the sanctified by Nobel prize lab mistake that has allowed a huge mythology to grow up around cobalamins most of which is quite wrong. They mistakenly consider HyCbl to be an "active" form and a fully functional b12, which it is not. The longer a person takes HyCbl the worse about 90% of active b12 deficiency symptoms get for most people. If they included folate that would be folic acid, again for mostly the same mistaken reasons and it would do even more damage. It isn't folate that is damaged by cyanide. Cyanide rapidly combines with AdoCbl and MeCbl sweeping it from the body as does glutathione.
  18. gettinbetter

    gettinbetter

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    Methylation improved energy and lessened fatigue about 30 percent
    I discovered I had an infection Cpn and started therapy for that
    that got me another 20 percent better
  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @joshi81, everything on your list has improved for me. Things began improving when I went gluten/dairy-free, more when I added the correct minerals, P5P, TMG. I'm close to a year on Freddd's Protocol, initially starting very very slowly. I needn't have been so cautious, but didn't really understand the B12/folate relationship. Now that I'm clear with that and the symptoms, I'm raising folate 100-300 every few days, up to 8.4 mg now, w/ 9mg MB12, 7.5 AdB12, 2x LCF (Dr's Best, as per Freddd above). I'm feeling better and better, my episodic insomnia, which had become chronic, is gone. I've never slept so well in my life. I'm fortunate to have a small group of symptoms to alert me to increase folate, a ridge of pimples around hairline, acne on face. BTW, if you still want sulfate strips, let me know by pm. ahmo
  20. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    hi @ahmo also for you improved the muscular symptoms?
    cool! which brand of mb12 are you taking?

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