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When methylation is corrected... Does it release stored toxins? How do we "mop-up"?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by treefrog, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. treefrog

    treefrog

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    I don't mean to knock anyone but the tests are not always accurate.

    I usually try something, like a protocol, gradually - to see if it actually changes anything. I've taken so many supplements - expensive ones - & many didn't feel different. I tried Vitalzym, lumborkinase, & growth hormone shots (to name a few)... My test results improved but I didn't feel any different. So - you don't really know.

    I did feel a difference with the simplified methylation protocol. So, I want to explore it further but I don't want to go broke on testing. I do think it releases stored toxins. So, I'm looking at ways to deal with that at the moment. Metals, as well as, other toxins are an issue.

    This article was really good in case anyone is interested -

    Methylation
    http://www.betterhealthguy.com/joomla/blog/265
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This seems to have happened to me also. And I've heard others having the same experience. I'm glad you started this thread to make people aware of this phenomenon. Even though the most common adverse symptoms from following a methylation protocol are most likely to be caused by overmethylation which results in low potassium and/or excitoxicity, the release of toxins is something else to watch out for.

    Although the type of toxins are probably going to vary a lot from person to person, this what Rich says about methylation and mercury.
    I prefer hydroxocobalamin for several reasons. One is that it allows the cells to control the amounts of the coenzyme forms of B12 (methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin) that they make, so that they can be matched to the need. Taking methylcobalamin in large dosages by injection or sublingually can overdrive the methylation cycle, as evidenced by a major rise in sarcosine, which I've seen in amino acids testing on some people who have been on this treatment for a while. I am not comfortable with overdriving the methylation cycle, both because I think it slows flow down the transsulfuration pathway and thus limits the normalization of the balance of the sulfur metabolism, including cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate, and also because I am concerned about the possibility of overmethylation of DNA, which could have other deleterious effects.

    My other concern is that methylcobalamin is known to be chemically able to methylate inorganic mercury. Many PWCs have significant body burdens of inorganic mercury as a result of having amalgam fillings in their teeth during an extended period while glutathione has been low, so that they have not been able to detox mercury at normal rates. Methylmercury can cross the blood-brain barrier readily. Mercury is a potent neurotoxin if it gets into the brain. This problem has been observed in guinea pigs. I don't have solid evidence for it in humans, but have heard from perhaps three people who may have had this problem, based on what they have reported. So I prefer to be cautious.

    This having been said, some people have had good experience with methylcobalamin. It can be especially helpful if a person has a shortage of methyl groups, though that can also be helped by taking some additional trimethylglycine (some of which is in the multi that is part of the simplified treatment). or some SAMe. It's used a lot subcutaneously by the DAN! doctors in autism treatment, and as you probably know, freddd on this forum advocates its use as well. In his case, because of a mutation in the intracellular B12 processing enzymes, his body is not able to utilized hydroxocobalamin readily. But I believe that this is a rare situation, based on the published literature. freddd does not agree that it is rare, based on his experience.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  3. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Just to add to the Lyme mention...Lyme is proven to consume B12. In fact many microorganisms produce their results by either consuming the B12 in your diet themselves, leaving you deficient, or my excreting toxic substances. I was investigating p-cresyl sulfate when my father died...it is a non-dialyzable toxin in the blood given off my intestinal microorganisms. My father got cdiff (clostridium difficles) in the hospital and that caused me to research gut difficulties. I was shocked to read that everything necessary could NOT be dialyzed out of the blood and that kidney doctors DO NOT prescribe probiotics to prevent their buildup.

    What Iwas wondering here, in regards to the methyl cycle and getting it working, was if potassium is the end of the story or if magnesium is also required to get the methyl cycle working (and thus startup causes a lowering of magnesium, requiring supplementation). I know others have said in here that magnesium is required everytime ATP is used and turning the methyl cycle requires ATP. The thing is that serum magnesium is not indicative of magnesium in the tissues. Here is a tongue swab test you can take for tissue magnesium levels. It is the next test I was going to get on my Dad if he had lived long enough: http://www.exatest.com/

    http://www.easy-immune-health.com/magnesium-level.html
    http://www.jacn.org/content/23/6/732S.full
    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/92/8/2190.full
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9502656
    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/102/19/2353.full

    Look here for signs of magnesium deficiency: http://www.easy-immune-health.com/signs-of-magnesium-deficiency.html
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I started a thread about Lyme and Methylation, but there is also information in that thread about Methylation and the Immune System in general which could be useful to other people who don't have Lyme. I've included a research paper by Rich about the subject at the top of the thread
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...glutathione-depletion-rich-vanks-posts.21563/

    This from Rich talking about potential adverse reactions to watch out for during methylation treatment.
    One physician I know gives all his patients the methylation treatment, and then watches the response. If they experience some symptoms that appear to be caused by detox, but they are able to tolerate them, he continues with this treatment. If they have intolerable symptoms that appear to be related to mobilization of toxins, then he stops the methylation treatment and works on improving the status of the gut. When that is working better, he moves on to supporting the liver. His thinking is that the toxins that were being mobilized were being reabsorbed by the gut and sent back to the liver. In order to properly process and excrete the toxins, the gut and liver must both be functioning well enough to handle them.

    My guess is that when there is an inflammation response to methylation cycle treatment, there is an infection. If the inflammation continues without resolution, then my guess is that the immune system has been reactivated, but is not capable of defeating an existing infection. In such cases, I think that treating to support the immune system would be one approach. Another would be to test to determine what pathogen is causing the infection, and then treating it with an antibiotic, antiviral or antifungal, depending on the pathogen.

    I think it's important to note that a healthy person would not have any reaction to the supplements used in the methylation protocols, because their methylation cycle, detox system and immune system would already be functioning normally. So the fact that there is a response, even though it may seem to be deleterious, means that the methylation cycle was partially blocked and that these supplements were needed. However, the way one should proceed from that point on probably depends on the type of response that the individual person has.

    So far, I'm pretty sure that if the following are present, they will need specific treatment, in addition to treating the methylation cycle partial block: biotoxin (including mold) illness, Lyme disease and its coinfections, well-entrenched viral infections, and high body burdens of toxic heavy metals, such as mercury. There may be others of which I'm not aware, but there is some experience with these, at least, which people have reported

    I believe that the partial methylation cycle block is the pivotal abnormality in the pathogenesis and pathophysiology. With respect to the root cause or causes (etiology) of ME/CFS, I have suggested that this disorder arises from a combination of a genetic predisposition and some combination of a variety of stressors, which can be physical. chemical, biological, or psychological/emotional. I've suggested that this combination leads to glutathione depletion, which leaves B12 unprotected, which causes a decreased production of methylacobalamin, which inhibits methionine synthase, which forms a vicious circle with glutathione depletion, making ME/CFS a chronic condition. The retroviruses would fit within the biological stressors in my hypothesis, and certainly could be a root cause. If effective treatment of the retroviruses ends up bringing about recovery from ME/CFS, that will be very convincing as to its role as an etiologic agent. I hope that turns out to be the case for at least some of the PWMEs/PWCs. It may not be true for all of them, though, because this population seems to be very heterogeneous.

    The reason I have included the variety of stressors as etiologic agents is that I have studied the published "risk factor" studies, and have also queried quite a few PWMEs/PWCs as to the events that preceded their onset, and I've found a variety of precursors. The common factor seems to be that they are all things that would be dealt with by the body's nonspecific stress response systems, and these in turn are known to place demands on glutathione.

    In addition to this, there are now many PWMEs/PWCs who have taken the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel, and nearly all of them show evidence of a partial methylation cycle block or glutathione depletion, and usually both.

    And when treatment was given in our clinical study that is directed toward lifting the partial methylation cycle block, we observed by testing that this does in fact occur, and that glutathione also comes up automatically. This was accompanied by improvement in symptoms in at least two-thirds of those who were treated.

    Putting all of this together, I think the GD-MCB hypothesis is consistent with the observations and with known biochemistry and physiology. That doesn't mean that I believe that it is scientifically proven, which is a very high standard to meet, and requires considerable investment in time, money and effort, but that it is a valid working hypothesis. I'm hoping to interest researchers and fundors in this model so that it can be more thoroughly tested.

    The methylation cycle is at the beginning of the sulfur metabolism. It is fed by methionine, which comes in as part of protein in the diet. Homocysteine is produced from methionine (via SAMe and SAH) in the methylation cycle, and then methionine synthase "decides" how much should be converted back to methionine, to stay in the methylation cycle. In the liver and kidneys, the BHMT reaction also converts some homocysteine back to methionine. The rest of the homocysteine enters the transsulfuration pathway, which is downstream.

    The way that methionine synthase does its "deciding" is that the cobalt ion in the cobalamin that is its cofactor gets oxidized at a rate that depends on the state of oxidative stress in the cells. The more oxidizing this state is, the more often the cobalt ion gets oxidized, and that temporarily shuts down the methionine synthase reaction and diverts the homocysteine flow into the transsulfuration pathway, which helps to make more glutathione, which counters the oxidative stress. Unfortunately, in ME/CFS this delicate mechanism gets overwhelmed, and the oxidative stress becomes more severe, so that glutathione doesn't recover and get control of it. The result is that methionine synthase becomes partially blocked, and the sulfur metabolites drain down the transsulfuration pathway, into sulfoxidation, and get excreted too much as taurine and sulfate, which depletes methionine. The whole sulfur metabolism becomes dysfunctional, and that takes down the cell-mediated immune response as well as the detoxication system. As well, everything that depends on methylation reactions is affected, including gene expression, synthesis of several needed substances, and the neurotransmitter metabolism. Also, this drains the folates from the cells via the methyl trap mechanism, and that affects things that depend on folate, such as synthesis of new RNA and DNA. The latter is what cause the red blood cells to be too big and too few in number.

    The methylation cycle is so fundamental to so many parts of the body's biochemistry that when it becomes dysfunctional, it causes a host of problems, and this is why people experience so many symptoms, involving so many body systems and organs, in this disorder.
  5. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Anyone who suspects Mercury toxicity should read up on these two before using. Both can bring Mercury into or out of the brain. If there is a heavy blood/body load of Hg chances are you will bring Mercury into the brain and the effects have been devastating for some.
  6. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I have done horribly with both cilantro and ALA. So this makes sense to me.

    The question that remains is how do you prevent the Hg from entering the brain and keep it moving out of the body? Rich provided some helpful ideas, which I already use. But I still go through those awful detox symptoms when I take the methylation supps... Maybe working on gut and liver issues (as per a previous post) would be a good idea.
  7. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Mercury shouldn't get into the brain through the Blood Brain Barrier. With amalgams being place just inches from a human brain it is conceivable it might enter due to proximity. But most Hg from amalgams is thought to enter the body in the lungs via vapor evaporation ().

    I'm going to try the SMP very slow for the next attempt. Hopefully that will help my symptoms.
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've heard from several people with mercury and/or other metal toxicities who've said they've had an especially tough time with methylation. Two of them even got tested after starting methylation and said methylation caused them to release toxins. And another person with mercury issues told me that she would have to wet a toothpick and take only a tiny bit of methylfolate because even that would cause severe detox reaction. I think my initial (and continuing) troubles with methylation could be in part due to mercury issues. I had a damaged tooth with an amalgam during 2012 and I now think I was at least exposed to some mercury during that period.

    Rich has suggested taking binders such as charcoal during methylation. The problem with charcoal is that it binds to everything so you have to take it away from food, supplements, and prescription drugs. I have a nearly full bottle because I'm afraid to use it. I've heard several people having success with calcium bentonite, but also reports of contamination of both bentonite and zeolite. All the people selling bentonite make it sound like the kind they sell is pure. One manufacturer of modified citrus pectin claims that MCP only binds to the "bad stuff", but that sounds too good to be true.

    I stopped taking Alpha Lipoic Acid and NAC for a period after I was having trouble the methylfolate because I suspected mercury and both Rich and Andy Cutler say not to take those if you suspect mercury. I also stopped ginkgo biloba, vinpocetine, grapeseed extract, and resveratrol because all those supplements increase bloodflow to the brain. I was taking all of those without any problems though until after my tooth cracked and I started taking methylfolate. The thing that I can't figure out is that if something increases bloodflow to the brain then it would also increase bloodflow away from the brain. I took everything I mentioned for over a year even though I had amalgams and didn't have any problems, but I was already starting to make a recovery. Before that I had a really rough period after taking "detox baths" for a couple months. Now I'm in the same situation I was in 2-3 years ago before my recovery. I think I have other toxins besides metals though. I've been on prescription drugs for the past 15 years. That can't be good. Plus I have Lyme and there's all sorts of toxins associated with that. Plus years of drinking tap water. I can't say for sure what's going on with me, but as I mentioned earlier I do know some people who've been tested for metals and it seems clear methylation is causing them to be released.

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