The Power and Pitfalls of Omics: George Davey Smith’s storming talk at ME/CFS conference
Read about the talk that stole the show at a recent ME/CFS conference in Simon McGrath's two-part blog.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

What was reverse/mickel therapy/lightning process like for you

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by l2009, Jul 30, 2016.

  1. l2009

    l2009

    Messages:
    39
    Likes:
    85
    I spent 1000s on these guys I feel like I've been badly scammed, is there no one I can complain to about them?

    For me all they seemed to do was stress me out and make me feel worse, I'll go into full depth of people are interested, has anyone else tried them and what happened in your sessions?

    It's just so confusing when it's finished and you feel worse and you can't ask them for any more help, even though before they get the money off you they seem very positive
     
    Countrygirl, barbc56, justy and 6 others like this.
  2. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,751
    Likes:
    23,189
    Yes they are a scam. Motivational or talking therapy can't treat illness. Sorry to hear that you learned this the hard way.
     
    lemonworld, Wildcat, barbc56 and 4 others like this.
  3. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes:
    21,535
    Germany
    That would be interesting, accurate accounts of what happens on these courses are hard to come by because part of it is swearing the participants to secrecy. I've only read one account of what happens on a lightning process course, so it would be handy to have another. LP has been discussed extensively on these forums, in my opinion a thoroughly abusive scam, sorry it happened to you.
     
    barbc56, Snowdrop, justy and 5 others like this.
  4. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes:
    21,535
    Germany
  5. l2009

    l2009

    Messages:
    39
    Likes:
    85
    Is there anything specific you want to know

    I notice when you read the official testimonials they're very vague, I find that difficult as well, I've done all 3 is be happy to say exactly what goes on
     
    Ritto, Webdog, mango and 2 others like this.
  6. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes:
    10,480
    Cornwall, UK
    Please do. Loads of us here would want to read it.
     
    justy, Webdog, mango and 1 other person like this.
  7. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes:
    21,535
    Germany
    Just your account of what happened from start to finish on each of them would be great.
     
    justy, mango, tinacarroll27 and 4 others like this.
  8. l2009

    l2009

    Messages:
    39
    Likes:
    85
    In reverse and mocked therapy there pretty much the same, but mickel has keys which tbh makes it more complicated, it's like you've got to do 3 extra things on top, I found it really stressful

    The first session they tell you about the hypothalamus how it goes into overdrive and something to do with stress which was the only bit that I thought seemed OK, then after that it gets a bit messy

    Sometimes they'd ask me to get a diary and fill it in, but they were never really clear what I was supposed to do,

    It would be stuff like

    Someone said this
    I felt annoyed
    What action I took eg excuse me but that's annoying
    What was the result eg they told me to piss off, or they ignored me etc

    After that they don't really tell you anything, there beliefs seem to be just let them keep doing this and they'll work it out for themselves, it's really stressful but apparat you stress doesn't exist according to them it's only repressed emotions which is a bit of a stressful thing to work out and make sense of

    With others I wouldn't even have a diary I wouldn't have a clue what the hell I was supposed to be doing, they'd say stuff about head mind and they seemed to think because of that I'd be well the next time we spoke but obv I wasn't

    On the one hand they seem to want you to be In some zen state of peacefulness and in the other they're telling you to do exciting things to pump your body up into a non depressed state, which kind of contradicts each other really

    They're not caring or people mowith a lot of empathy, after about 6 sessions they go very cold and distant on you, obv you'll be feeling confused by that stage, if you're lucky enough to get a reply they'll stay stuff like 'well you can have another session of you like' but usually they will blank you after around 6-8 sessions regardless of how your health is, sometimes they'll give you some label ft some random condition tO get you to try other therapies, I was told to go on anger management which seemed pointless and to see my gp bu t all he did was give me cbt which these therapies say themselves Isn't helpful
    D
    I remember once I emailed dr mickel he replied and said he'd phone but he called on a withheld number, I missed the call, emailed him back within 1 minute to say sorry I missed the call and there was no reply or no other way to contact, I was just blanked

    Before I did it I was a lot less stressed, now my stress is all over the place but
    apparantly it doesn't exist so I dunno

    At least with reve re

    If there's anything else anyone wants to know just ask
     
    ScottTriGuy, aaron_c, barbc56 and 7 others like this.
  9. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes:
    21,535
    Germany
    Thanks for that. I suspect the only way you could have satisfied these people (apart from giving them all your money) would be to miraculously get better, anything less and they behave as if you're personally trying to spite them.

    Suggesting dissatisfied customers go on an anger management course? That would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting.
     
  10. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,814
    Unfortunately it seems to be the last refuge of quackery in general. My disagreement regarding an unproven and extremely unlikely methodology for curing ME elsewhere on this forum led to someone claiming that it must be my OI treatment causing me to be so disagreeable :rolleyes:

    It's an extremely nasty and abusive line of argument, and has no place in civilized conversation. It's especially unfortunate that paid "therapists" are doing this to their desperate customers. The intent is probably to try to make the customers feel like they are failures, to avoid blame being put upon the therapy and the therapists.
     
    Solstice, barbc56, Cheshire and 4 others like this.
  11. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes:
    10,480
    Cornwall, UK
    Thanks, I2009. Your autocorrect rendered Mickel Therapy as 'mocked therapy' at the start, which sounds about right!

    Have you done the Lightning Process, too?

    Generally speaking, with all these guys, I sometimes have moments where I see their testimonials and videos with 'recovered' patients etc., and a part of me thinks "They can't all be lying, so maybe there's something in it." But then I get rational and realise what's going on:

    The only thing that allows these people to exist it the prevalence in some regions of the 'Oxford' Criteria, notoriously vague and almost certainly leading to people with ME and people with other conditions, one of which would perhaps more accurately be called Burn-out, all getting the same diagnostic label.

    All these 'therapies' run through franchised practitioners, all of whom get training from the same commercial organisation. Their practice is to pre-screen patients and turn away those who don't fit, although they're vague about what that means. In the case of the Lightning Process, one of the reasons for turning patients away is that "they haven't done enough work and need to go away and study some more" (that's a Phil Parker quote, slightly paraphrased).

    LP requires patients to buy a book and/or audio downloads and study them before they will be considered for a course. There's an old marketing adage that people will value more what you make them pay for. Phil knows his marketing.

    And of course, if you've had to work at something before you even start with it, you're far less likely to look at it and think "this is stoopid".

    And you can't buy the book, which 'explains the science behind the LP', until you've signed up with them, which noticeably requires you to give them your address and telephone number.

    So .... IF they're happy that you've read their book and half-memorised it (some patients may laugh here), and IF you fit their secret criteria for acceptance, THEN they might let you on a course.

    They're gathering up the people most likely to respond to life coaching / CBT / Emotional Freedom Technique etc. They really they only need a small number of these people to recover and they've got their 'patient testimonials' right there. And if that person happens to be a celebrity (and those guys are more susceptible than most to cleverly targeted marketing), so much the better. Because then they get more newsprint and airtime, and so the marketing cycle goes ....

    I think the bottom line is that the people behind these 'therapies' know damn well what well-informed patients know — that the current diagnostic criteria are a joke and that the prevalent biopsychosocial model has created an unholy mess which cleverly targeted psych therapies can exploit, picking off the low-hanging fruit and using it to create an illusion of efficacy.
     
    OhShoot, barbc56, Cheshire and 5 others like this.
  12. justy

    justy Donate Advocate Demonstrate

    Messages:
    5,290
    Likes:
    12,034
    U.K
    I used to wonder if LP or Mickel or Reverse might help me - despite the fact I was a trained counsellor and in touch with my own feelings etc.

    Then I saw an M.E medical expert and it was found that I have:
    Three chronic bacterial infections
    EDS III
    Mast Cell Activation Disease
    Mitral Valve Prolapse
    Severe iron deficiency
    A specific immune deficiency ( don't produce antibodies to pneumonia and have had it more than three times in my life so far)
    Intestinal bugs in my blood stream (5 different types)
    Positive autoimmune markers
    Chronically increased IGM
    High inflammatory cytokines and chemokines

    Now I KNOW that I cant think that lot better, and its not just stress or faulty thinking or catastrophizing. If anything I downplay my illness and cant believe I am this ill.
     
  13. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes:
    4,552
    Europe
    @I2009 Thanks for sharing your experience. Each time I read one of these eyewitness accounts, I get the feeling that the client is there for the sole purpose of providing the therapist with validation that the treatment works. Madness.
     
    Mij, barbc56, Valentijn and 1 other person like this.
  14. l2009

    l2009

    Messages:
    39
    Likes:
    85
    They teach stuff like boundaries, which lets be honest most of us know about already but if you're too stressful for the therapist they'll use you to help them work on their own boundaries by ignoring you f that makes sense
     
    OhShoot, barbc56, Valentijn and 3 others like this.
  15. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes:
    10,480
    Cornwall, UK
    LOL! :cool::thumbsup:
     
    barbc56 and Effi like this.
  16. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes:
    10,480
    Cornwall, UK
    I was just taking another look at the LP site (I find them weirdly fascinating). They're careful these days not to mention specific illnesses on the site, although their promo videos on YouTube include testimonials from patients, some of them now LP practitioners, liberally referring to ME / CFS / FM etc. I seem to recall they were censured by the Advertising Standards people and have presumably removed references to specific illnesses because of that. They're letting patients do that bit for them.

    I love this. You have to sign it before submitting your application:

    “I understand that the Lightning Process is a training programme. Its’ purpose is to train me in the tools of the Process, and I realise that simply attending will not guarantee me any results. I recognise the changes I want can best be obtained by fully participating and engaging in the seminars and continuing to apply it after. I am ready and committed to do this.”

    And that's verbatim, btw, rogue apostrophe and garbled grammar and all.
     
    justy, barbc56, Effi and 2 others like this.
  17. l2009

    l2009

    Messages:
    39
    Likes:
    85
    It reminded me of being poked with a stick repeatedly but the second you actually get angry it's apparantly wrong, a total mind fcuk

    Another one is th linden method which is to cure anxiety but can cure Cfs as well according to them

    There's basically 9 things you have to do, called the 9 pillars, that they say will cure Cfs

    It's things like

    Fill every moment of every day
    Stop reaearchibg your condition
    Get a hobby etc

    If you want to know what all 9 are just google it and you should find them, there's the obligatory relaxation cd thrown in with it to justify the 150 quid or whatever it is
     
    justy, OhShoot, barbc56 and 3 others like this.
  18. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes:
    10,480
    Cornwall, UK
    Cool, never heard of that one before. But you're out of date!!!


    http://www.panic-anxiety.com/thelindenmethodninepillars/
     
  19. l2009

    l2009

    Messages:
    39
    Likes:
    85
    The 10th and 11th pillar can't be very important because I gave them 150 pounds I think it was and there was only 9, surely if the new ones were so important they'd let know?

    Apparantly nimber 10 is compliance, It doesn't quite make sense to me really
     
  20. l2009

    l2009

    Messages:
    39
    Likes:
    85
    Apparantly the linden method has 96.7% success rate which is a total lie, they certainly never surveyed me, once these guys have your money they don't give a shit

    I remember mickel therapy used to say everyone gets better unless they quit but thankfully they've taken that down now, I think it's more like 30% according to a Cfs magazine I read with 40% feeling worse
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
    justy, aaron_c, barbc56 and 4 others like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page