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What was reverse/mickel therapy/lightning process like for you

Messages
63
I spent 1000s on these guys I feel like I've been badly scammed, is there no one I can complain to about them?

For me all they seemed to do was stress me out and make me feel worse, I'll go into full depth of people are interested, has anyone else tried them and what happened in your sessions?

It's just so confusing when it's finished and you feel worse and you can't ask them for any more help, even though before they get the money off you they seem very positive
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
I'll go into full depth of people are interested
That would be interesting, accurate accounts of what happens on these courses are hard to come by because part of it is swearing the participants to secrecy. I've only read one account of what happens on a lightning process course, so it would be handy to have another. LP has been discussed extensively on these forums, in my opinion a thoroughly abusive scam, sorry it happened to you.
 
Messages
63
That would be interesting, accurate accounts of what happens on these courses are hard to come by because part of it is swearing the participants to secrecy. I've only read one account of what happens on a lightning process course, so it would be handy to have another. LP has been discussed extensively on these forums, in my opinion a thoroughly abusive scam, sorry it happened to you.

Is there anything specific you want to know

I notice when you read the official testimonials they're very vague, I find that difficult as well, I've done all 3 is be happy to say exactly what goes on
 
Messages
63
In reverse and mocked therapy there pretty much the same, but mickel has keys which tbh makes it more complicated, it's like you've got to do 3 extra things on top, I found it really stressful

The first session they tell you about the hypothalamus how it goes into overdrive and something to do with stress which was the only bit that I thought seemed OK, then after that it gets a bit messy

Sometimes they'd ask me to get a diary and fill it in, but they were never really clear what I was supposed to do,

It would be stuff like

Someone said this
I felt annoyed
What action I took eg excuse me but that's annoying
What was the result eg they told me to piss off, or they ignored me etc

After that they don't really tell you anything, there beliefs seem to be just let them keep doing this and they'll work it out for themselves, it's really stressful but apparat you stress doesn't exist according to them it's only repressed emotions which is a bit of a stressful thing to work out and make sense of

With others I wouldn't even have a diary I wouldn't have a clue what the hell I was supposed to be doing, they'd say stuff about head mind and they seemed to think because of that I'd be well the next time we spoke but obv I wasn't

On the one hand they seem to want you to be In some zen state of peacefulness and in the other they're telling you to do exciting things to pump your body up into a non depressed state, which kind of contradicts each other really

They're not caring or people mowith a lot of empathy, after about 6 sessions they go very cold and distant on you, obv you'll be feeling confused by that stage, if you're lucky enough to get a reply they'll stay stuff like 'well you can have another session of you like' but usually they will blank you after around 6-8 sessions regardless of how your health is, sometimes they'll give you some label ft some random condition tO get you to try other therapies, I was told to go on anger management which seemed pointless and to see my gp bu t all he did was give me cbt which these therapies say themselves Isn't helpful
D
I remember once I emailed dr mickel he replied and said he'd phone but he called on a withheld number, I missed the call, emailed him back within 1 minute to say sorry I missed the call and there was no reply or no other way to contact, I was just blanked

Before I did it I was a lot less stressed, now my stress is all over the place but
apparantly it doesn't exist so I dunno

At least with reve re

If there's anything else anyone wants to know just ask
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
Thanks for that. I suspect the only way you could have satisfied these people (apart from giving them all your money) would be to miraculously get better, anything less and they behave as if you're personally trying to spite them.

Suggesting dissatisfied customers go on an anger management course? That would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting.
 
Messages
15,786
Suggesting dissatisfied customers go on an anger management course? That would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting.
Unfortunately it seems to be the last refuge of quackery in general. My disagreement regarding an unproven and extremely unlikely methodology for curing ME elsewhere on this forum led to someone claiming that it must be my OI treatment causing me to be so disagreeable :rolleyes:

It's an extremely nasty and abusive line of argument, and has no place in civilized conversation. It's especially unfortunate that paid "therapists" are doing this to their desperate customers. The intent is probably to try to make the customers feel like they are failures, to avoid blame being put upon the therapy and the therapists.
 

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
Thanks, I2009. Your autocorrect rendered Mickel Therapy as 'mocked therapy' at the start, which sounds about right!

Have you done the Lightning Process, too?

Generally speaking, with all these guys, I sometimes have moments where I see their testimonials and videos with 'recovered' patients etc., and a part of me thinks "They can't all be lying, so maybe there's something in it." But then I get rational and realise what's going on:

The only thing that allows these people to exist it the prevalence in some regions of the 'Oxford' Criteria, notoriously vague and almost certainly leading to people with ME and people with other conditions, one of which would perhaps more accurately be called Burn-out, all getting the same diagnostic label.

All these 'therapies' run through franchised practitioners, all of whom get training from the same commercial organisation. Their practice is to pre-screen patients and turn away those who don't fit, although they're vague about what that means. In the case of the Lightning Process, one of the reasons for turning patients away is that "they haven't done enough work and need to go away and study some more" (that's a Phil Parker quote, slightly paraphrased).

LP requires patients to buy a book and/or audio downloads and study them before they will be considered for a course. There's an old marketing adage that people will value more what you make them pay for. Phil knows his marketing.

And of course, if you've had to work at something before you even start with it, you're far less likely to look at it and think "this is stoopid".

And you can't buy the book, which 'explains the science behind the LP', until you've signed up with them, which noticeably requires you to give them your address and telephone number.

So .... IF they're happy that you've read their book and half-memorised it (some patients may laugh here), and IF you fit their secret criteria for acceptance, THEN they might let you on a course.

They're gathering up the people most likely to respond to life coaching / CBT / Emotional Freedom Technique etc. They really they only need a small number of these people to recover and they've got their 'patient testimonials' right there. And if that person happens to be a celebrity (and those guys are more susceptible than most to cleverly targeted marketing), so much the better. Because then they get more newsprint and airtime, and so the marketing cycle goes ....

I think the bottom line is that the people behind these 'therapies' know damn well what well-informed patients know — that the current diagnostic criteria are a joke and that the prevalent biopsychosocial model has created an unholy mess which cleverly targeted psych therapies can exploit, picking off the low-hanging fruit and using it to create an illusion of efficacy.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
I used to wonder if LP or Mickel or Reverse might help me - despite the fact I was a trained counsellor and in touch with my own feelings etc.

Then I saw an M.E medical expert and it was found that I have:
Three chronic bacterial infections
EDS III
Mast Cell Activation Disease
Mitral Valve Prolapse
Severe iron deficiency
A specific immune deficiency ( don't produce antibodies to pneumonia and have had it more than three times in my life so far)
Intestinal bugs in my blood stream (5 different types)
Positive autoimmune markers
Chronically increased IGM
High inflammatory cytokines and chemokines

Now I KNOW that I cant think that lot better, and its not just stress or faulty thinking or catastrophizing. If anything I downplay my illness and cant believe I am this ill.
 

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
I was just taking another look at the LP site (I find them weirdly fascinating). They're careful these days not to mention specific illnesses on the site, although their promo videos on YouTube include testimonials from patients, some of them now LP practitioners, liberally referring to ME / CFS / FM etc. I seem to recall they were censured by the Advertising Standards people and have presumably removed references to specific illnesses because of that. They're letting patients do that bit for them.

I love this. You have to sign it before submitting your application:

“I understand that the Lightning Process is a training programme. Its’ purpose is to train me in the tools of the Process, and I realise that simply attending will not guarantee me any results. I recognise the changes I want can best be obtained by fully participating and engaging in the seminars and continuing to apply it after. I am ready and committed to do this.”

And that's verbatim, btw, rogue apostrophe and garbled grammar and all.
 
Messages
63
It reminded me of being poked with a stick repeatedly but the second you actually get angry it's apparantly wrong, a total mind fcuk

Another one is th linden method which is to cure anxiety but can cure Cfs as well according to them

There's basically 9 things you have to do, called the 9 pillars, that they say will cure Cfs

It's things like

Fill every moment of every day
Stop reaearchibg your condition
Get a hobby etc

If you want to know what all 9 are just google it and you should find them, there's the obligatory relaxation cd thrown in with it to justify the 150 quid or whatever it is
 

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
Messages
63
Apparantly the linden method has 96.7% success rate which is a total lie, they certainly never surveyed me, once these guys have your money they don't give a shit

I remember mickel therapy used to say everyone gets better unless they quit but thankfully they've taken that down now, I think it's more like 30% according to a Cfs magazine I read with 40% feeling worse
 
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