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What other Supplements are helping you through SMP and why?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I don't know if there is such a thread yet. I looked :) If there is one please point me to it and ignore this one. If not please add your experience here.

    I'd like to know what other supplements (than B12 and Folate) are helping you get through the SMP and specifically what symptom they are helping and maybe what stage of the SMP are you in.

    It would be nice to have this information in a single thread for everyone to reference.

    Cheers!
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Good question. I hope there will lots of helpful input... and yes, all in one place would be great.

    Personally, I have to take NAC or glutathione at times, to get me through the rough spots, and help me the clear the toxic metal dumps that always seem to come up with methylation. I also take lecithin, and anti-flammatory herbs if needed, like holy basil, turmeric, xyflamend. And also, both magnesium and potassium, which seem to get depleted when methylation is in overdrive.

    I did the full SMP back about 3 years ago, but after 6 weeks I began to feel too toxic and miserable to continue. Rich was very helpful at guiding me through the detox at that point. He was very flexible in how he worked with each of us, and how he helped us to find ways to manage our symptoms. There's probably good info on his threads about SMP.

    At this point, I have given up on protocols and have decided to listen to my body and do what works best for me. I have worked my dose of HB12 and MB12 up very slowly for the past 2-3 years from just a crumb of H and MB12, and can handle up to 1000 mcg of B12, which I take irregularly, with breaks in btwn to prevent overdriving methylation. I take no folate at this point. The B12 is enough for me right now.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'll post a more detailed and complete list later, but I'm taking all of the supplements in Freddd's protocol except for the methyl donors. That would be everything except B12, Folate, TMG, SAMe, and choline. I don't remember if choline is in his protocol, if you're taking lecithin you're already getting plenty of choline. Anyone taking vitamin D should also take vitamin K (in the form of K2 is more bioavailable than K1) to make sure you don't have an excess amount of calcium in the blood which could lead to calcification of the arteries and tissues and also osteoporosis. I've found that if I'm not getting enough sleep and limiting activities and sources of stress then all the supplements I'm taking are merely band-aids at best.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    With Lecithin and b-complex intended to contain choline I don't normally mention it separately. You know that AdoCbl has very little to do with methylation. It doesn't contribute any methyl groups and in fact requires them if to be converted. To a large extent it sits in the mitochondria. The other function appears antinflamatory and is involved with fats for myelin repair.
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Rich seemed to think most people can convert hydroxocobalamin into a sufficient amount of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. I know you have a different opinion, but I thought I'd mention it since this thread is about the Rich's SMP (simplified methylation protocol).

    I actually was taking a bit of adb12 since I have a sublingual b complex with it. I'd recommend the sublingual b complex since it also has coenzymated forms of B1, B2, B3, and B6 except that it also has folic acid which is why I've at least temporarily stopped taking it. The only way to take a low dose of adb12 without folic acid is to take it orally or buy a spray from Holistic Health. I don't know how many people here have a problem with folic acid which is why I wouldn't recommend it, but I'm still taking a low dose of folic acid myself.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    A quick note about NAC and Alpha Lipoic Acid. Rich says they shouldn't be used if you have a high mercury burden. I know Andy Cutler also cautions about using ALA. Although I take those warnings very seriously, I should also mention that I took 1200 mg of ALA and 1200 mg of NAC for over a year without any problems even though I had amalgams. The only other possible explanation would be that because I took them on an empty stomach the capsules might not have dissolved completely and weren't absorbed well. After getting sick from methylation I began to suspect mercury toxicity due to a damaged tooth with an amalgam and stopped ALA and NAC. I'm going to wait awhile before I try them again (except maybe in very low doses) until I can figure out what's going on with my health.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    Please list all the symptoms that blossomed when you got very sick. That is one way to perhaps find the pathway through.
  8. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    From my blog here... I have been able to stay on this protocol. The Pregnenolone is a huge help mentally. The Zinc, Mag and Potassium seem to be what my body was missing and helping me stay on the protocol this time.

    Daily...

    Upon awakening (6:15am): 1/4-1/2 Source Naturals 10mg Pregenenolone sublingual

    After getting up (6:30-6:45 or within 1/2 hour of waking) my currrent SMP supps:
    • 1/8 Jarrow 1000mcg MCbl (the older "glass" bottle. Would recommend enzymatic)
    • 1/8 Folapro 800mcg
    After a couple of hours to make sure they don't interfere with the meth supps. These are at least the core minerals I think I need to feel well.
    • Natural Factors Zinc Chelate 25mg
    • Natures Way Potassium Chelate (99mg)
    • Kal Mag Gycinate (400mg).
    Near lunchtime:
    • Jarrow Multi Vitamin (taking apart from my Meth supps by a few hours now since it has folic acid) OR
    • Jarrow B-Right
    Some time after lunch or at dinner:
    • Natures Way Potassium Chelate (99mg)
    • Kal Mag Gycinate (400mg).
    Also...
    Bedtime every other day (taking these seems to help me sleep)
    • E-complex (MRM)
    • Beta Care-All (Natural Factors)
    • Fish Oil (Source Naturals Arctic Pure)
    • Milk Thistle
    • Molybdenum (maybe once or twice a week)
  9. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    I think some people can get bogged down and start taking too many things. Maybe they were already taking things before they got here, or maybe they feel they need to add certain supplements based on a prior diagnosis.

    If I were starting over, I would advise someone to stick to the exact protocol for a few months and titrate the b12s and methylfolate before trying to add too many supplements. Go back to zero with the thought of methylation causing ALL of your symptoms. Treat only with the supplements in the protocol. If you don't improve by altering the basic protocol after 6-12 months, then maybe consider adding things from other protocols or other sources or moving on....

    There are just too many unknowns to start adding things and many people have been 100% cured by just what's in the protocols. Maybe some people need cilantro or milk thistle or other supplements, but I think it's more about accepting or even embracing the symptoms as signals and working within the protocol. Don't try to cover up the symptoms with other supplements, cure them with methylation supplements.....

    Of course this is my philosophy based on curing my wife and everyone is different and should not ignore any life threatening symptoms. I can't imagine a sick person trying to figure this out on their own. So keep it simple, addition by subtraction, and any other cliche sayings apply....
    greenshots and Victronix like this.
  10. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Red, I agree with you. The last few years (before I started SMP) I have always been very careful about adding and removing supplements. Always adding or removing only one at a time and always trying to take only what I thought I needed. Some supplements daily are even too much. Finding those that you should take every other day or every third day and so forth is important.

    There are also times when I will take supplement holiday and start over. Things change over time and things change all the time. Taking one supplement might change the need for another. Can be a delicate balancing act sometimes. My wife is currently having fairly severe peri-menopause problems. I'm working with her to try to help. I've been giving her small doses of MB12 lately and that seems to help with her energy. We both are waiting for our 23andme.com results. I expect to add a small dose of mFolate in a few weeks for her daily.

    In the mean time we are looking for a bio-identical hormone specialist in our area. Very hard to see your beloved spouse suffer so much. [/quote]
    Victronix likes this.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Red,

    I agree a whole lot with you here. I found that the people who have good results have followed the protocol quite exactly. There are so many confusing things. Even "titrate" can be misleading if person 'A" means rapid titration and somebody else interprets it as slow titration and then is upset it doesn't work.

    but I think it's more about accepting or even embracing the symptoms as signals and working within the protocol. Don't try to cover up the symptoms with other supplements, cure them with methylation supplements.....

    I would expand that to dealing with partial methylation block, partial ATP blockage and methyltrap. Without having these fundamental things working everything else is chasing ones tail in circles. When dealing with paradoxical symptoms and everything one takes affects the prior things all ready being taken, the structure of supplements being built is fully interactive.

    One must be able to distinguish the many varieties of response and work with each set of symptoms appropriately. When the choices towards healing are made, the response is quite prompt and moving in the right directions. When the hypothesis a person is working on takes them in the wrong direction all sorts of things happen and continue indefinitely. Be careful of NAMES of things.


    Of course this is my philosophy based on curing my wife and everyone is different and should not ignore any life threatening symptoms. I can't imagine a sick person trying to figure this out on their own.

    I can't imagine that either. This FMS/CFS/ME problem has everything stacked against anybody figuring it out, especially those with the brainfog. Such a person has to be willing to go against the AMA and medical industrial complex on vitamins, they have to go against 60 years of research showing why folic acid and CyCbl/HyCbl work microscopically and detectable by sensitive enough tests, despite their miserable human whole body rate of effectiveness and they have to be willing to go against many of the theories of the medical counter culture developed over the past 100 years.

    As the understandings and misunderstandings of the past 60 years have not only allowed the 21st century mystery disease to occur but appears to have encouraged it, to find a cure one must step outside the context of the context of the medical industrial complex and outside the equally failed understandings of the medical counter culture.

    cure them with methylation supplements.....

    Partial methylation block can't normally happen in the presence of MeCbl and l-methylfolate. Other aspects may contribute but appear to usually come on as a consequence of failed methylation. As this alone can start up hundreds of biochemical processes all at once, decades of stalled or failed healing being present, the startup is ragged. However, with partial methylation block or methyltrap, without methylation startup, nobody is cured. That is the most fundamental thing. Anything that doesn't start up methylation allows damage to continue increasing day by day. That is a defining characteristic of MeCbl/l-methylfolate deficiency, nothing else works. Some less active cobalamins or folates might work to some degree but as far as I've observed, outright healing very rarely occurs without MeCbl and l-methylfolate. CURED/HEALED is not the same as "some improvement".

    It's been quite a road. Your wife was fortunate to have somebody helping her in all this. I'm sure that you both have had to learn a lot. Good luck.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It's impossible to create a one-size-fit's-all protocol. While I agree with limiting the variables (I have a whole shelf of supplements I've stopped temporarily), it's important for one to adapt whichever protocol they're following to their own needs. There's supplements in both Rich's and Freddd's protocol that are contraindicated for certain people here and many people need supplements that aren't in either protocol.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I intend to answer the additional supplements question. In addition to all the vitamins and usual minerals I take lecithin and Omega3 oils, selenium, an 8 factor high gamma E, Chromium GTF, Pregnenolone, DHEA, SAM-e, (not TMG currently, testing out it's effects), Glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, Ginko, Resveratol, 5000 IU D. That is what I remember at the moment. I've been taking the lecithin, selenium and chromium for 30-40 years, fish liver oil A&D (Carlson). A lot of these predate MeCbl by decades as the seemed a good idea at the time and still do. I haven't run titration on all these. Before the MeCbl nothing made any noticeable difference. Now they are part of a working combination. I have stopped a few of them when running out every now and then and noticed no major differences. The SAM-e makes a difference that is noticeable. the DHEA and Pregnenolone are monitored by hormone tests as I also am on testosterone. They generally are suggested for those of us over 40. Lipids are tricky and we still have a lot to learn in that department. For instance I wonder if there isn't a perfect fat for the AdoCbl to generate myelin and what that is.

    As some of these things can affect hormones, blood clotting or blood sugar those to whom that matters need to be cautious and monitor carefully. Many of the things interact in complex ways. The things that make noticeable differences watch for changes.
  14. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    This is what I was referring to. Are you healed? You seem reluctant to follow freddds protocol but you have made 1100 posts about mixing them and why they don't work for everybody. And why rich was right and this study contradicts that. Try the protocol already. I've seen it work and bring me wife from bedridden to running a triathlon. All studies and theories be damned.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been taking all of the "cofactors" in Freddd's protocol for the past 2 years. If you're thinking the problem is that I wasn't doing methylation for most of that period then let me just remind you that my health got WORSE from methylation. Please don't lecture me on "healing". I'm very happy for your wife, but her experience is atypical in this community. I have no clue what you're talking about mixing the protocols unless you're talking about Freddd's cofactors which having absolutely nothing to do with methylation. Since even the starting dosages that Rich recommended were enough to make my health worse I have no idea why I would possibly consider trying the dosages in Freddd's protocol. Most of the posts about me supporting Rich's protocol were prompted by the false attacks by Freddd and others on Rich's protocol, but I've NEVER said Rich's protocol was better than Freddd's. Not once. NOT EVER. And I've certainly never tried to get people that were following Freddd's protocol to switch to Rich's.

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