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What is the real cause?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Violeta, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Or maybe, what came first? I don't know, but when you think about methylation blocks being caused by hormones, metals, pathogenic infections, and long term stress (which might actually come under hormones), wouldn't it make sense to try to deal with those issues before spending so much money, time, and thought on the exact amount of vitamins and minerals?

    Well, that's just where my thoughts are this morning as I'm in a heck of a lot of pain from taking something to activate my immune system and cutting out dairy, which I'm thinking might in some way deactivate the immune system giving a false sense of semi-wellness.

    I'm going to look at the old posts about babesia, lyme, and whatnot when I'm feeling a little better and see what I can learn from them.

    Also, although I don't believe in avoiding all sources of Vitamin D(including sunshine) or taking antibiotics, I'm going to go back and look at the Marshall Protocol to see what I can learn there.

    If anyone has been in this spot before me and still here and figured something out that might help, I would appreciate any imput.

    Thanks,
    Beyond likes this.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta,

    Ah yes, the old "what is the ultimate bottom of causality" modified to include "about which we can do something".

    No doubt some of it is in the genes but not always where expected. I came to this forum thinking my root cause was b12 related when it turned out to be folate based. The paradoxical folate deficiency can start either with exposure to plant folates or more commonly folic acid in formula and vitamin added foods.

    Others are not so easy to trace back.

    Another sizable group which can also include the first group additively can have a worsened partial methylation block and/or methyltrap and/or partial ATP block from physical trauma (car crash > FMS), disease (virus or bacteria) or even vaccine reaction which stresses the system more than it can handle, usually because the person is already on the edge of partial methylation block and they get pushed over the edge into a metastable illness condition that isn't ended without help usually.

    When B12 and folate are ineffective for any reason literally everything can go wrong affecting just about any combination of things in the body. The hallmark of b12/folate deficiencies/insufficiencies however caused is the very widespread nature of the symptoms.

    Now somebody working from a different hypothesis would explain it differently accounting for perhaps few specific situations. I include not just partial methylation block but methyltrap and partial ATP block as well so it casts a broader net.
  3. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Thanks, Fredd. Have you ever had your genes checked? I'm wondering if genetic issues actually reverse.

    I'm also wondering if things like pau d'arco tea and reishi, in helping a body deal with pathogens and restoring immune function, cause gene polymorphism reversal. Too much wondering on my part without any answers, I realize that.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta,

    I haven't had my genes checked. One thing I have been waiting for is to be in a positive cash flow position rather than digging deeper and deeper into a financial hole. I haven't had any incentive except curiosity as so far trying to treat these things based on the interpretation of a few polymorphisms has been, from a "group" perspective, worse than useless. Can anybody at all claim to have been healed, as in get rid of the symptoms of FMS/CFS/ME and rehabilitate based on genetic based guidance of using this or that form of vitamin instead of another? I haven't heard of any. As a strategy it doesn't appear as effective as a random strategy. Perhaps for carefully selected people it might make a difference here or there but without anybody actually being cured and rehabilitated. There is even advice being given that is 100% wrong based on other references on the same SNPs as has been revealed by digging deeper.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta,

    I have had no reason to test my genes as I am broke and using those tests for guiding treatment hasn't had cures that I have heard of based on such guidance as a strategy. As a group the results appear worse than useless though individual results vary hugely.

    http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...redientId=647&activeIngredientName=PAU D'ARCO
    Though possibly unsafe, especially at higher doses, pau d'arco is used to treat a wide range of infections. These include viral respiratory infections such as the common cold, flu, and H1N1 (swine) flu; sexually transmitted infections such as gonorrhea and syphilis; infections of the prostate and bladder; ringworm and other parasitic infections; yeast infections; and infectious diarrhea.

    Pau d’arco is also used for cancer. Interest in this use was intensified by extensive research in the 1960s that focused on the possible anti-cancer activity of lapachol, one of the chemicals in pau d’arco. However, research studies were stopped because, at the amounts needed to be effective against cancer, pau d’arco might well be poisonous. Among other things, it can cause severe internal bleeding.
    reishi mushroom-
    At least it isn't dangerous or poisonous. Olive Leaf extract appears to be an effective antiviral.

    The deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate appear to restore immune function, undo partial methylation block and undo methyltrap and undo partial ATP block in hours.
  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I don't feel the need to do the genetic testing, either. It would be interesting, though, to see if the supposed solutions for the specific findings produce reversal of polymorphisms.

    In all my looking up about pau d'arco I've never found anyone to find it unsafe. I looked at the link you provided about internal bleeding, and all causes mentioned were trauma. Nothing about pau d'arco. You can make a tea out of it and replace all your liquids, and probably get better from a lot of different stuff.

    Is WebMD sponsered by pharmaceuticals? Just wondering. They don't like effective alternative remedies. Olive leaf isn't as effective as pau d'arco, at least in my experience.

    If the deadlock quartet undoes partial methylation block and methytrap and partial ATP block in hours, then the effects should remain, right? If you undo the block, you're good? Is that what undoing the block means?

    You do make the deadlock quartet sound easy, but I've seen so many people not do well with it. Are you sure it's undoing the blocks?
  7. AbbyDear

    AbbyDear

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    Olive leaf extract was really tough on me - taking it for sometime (maybe several weeks), thinking, hoping it would eventually do something (waiting for the "herx" to subside...). However, the negative effects just kept getting worse, and remained for quite some time after discontinuing. Truly, it felt like it activated the immune system.

    High dose vitamin D had similar effect - after taking each of the single dose several times. Effects lasted a long time. Of course the doctor scoffed at me, suggesting vitamin D can only do good, negative effects can not be possible - so it's obviously my fault, i must have done something wrong. Not saying some vitamin D is bad, but 50,000 IU did have a negative effect on me.
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The answer is yes. You have to work on both external stressors and genetic mutations as they all affect methylation. If you just do one or the other, you may not get healing, or if you do, you may be prone to relapse.

    It's sort of a judgement call as to whether to work on external stressors before mutations or vice versa. For example, for metals, working on methylation will start metal detox, and you may not even need to do a special metal detox. If you try to work on metals first without getting your detox system working, you could have a lot of problems. Or in the third case, you could get some metals out with methylation, then retest and find that your metals are still high, so then decide to do a special metal detox in addition. In which case, it should go a lot better because your detox system is working better.
  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    That's interesting about the olive leaf, and that the problem it caused was from activating the immune system. I feel like that's what's happening to me from cutting out dairy and taking reishi and rhus tea (which I've only drank one cup of so far) I definitely am going to slow down on both.

    I have heard a lot of people run into problems from taking Vitamin D, though. Did you know it suppresses one branch of the immune system? Also, it has to be processed through the liver and kidneys to make it into the usable form, so I think that adding in a ton of it would make liver and possibly kidney problems worse.
  10. AbbyDear

    AbbyDear

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    no, I am not sure the effect vitamin D is known to have on the immune system, however, I should add that I did hear about someone (before I did it) who was helped by that treatment - not 100% but I think she might have had arthritic type symptoms.
  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Ah, so much, isn't it?
    Do you know, do blocks cause the mutations in those with a predisposition?
    Or do blocks cause fatty liver, which messes up methylation, which then causes mutations?
  12. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Yes, it can help you if you have an overactive Th1 branch of the immune system(at least initially), but make you worse if you have an underactive Th1 branch and an over active Th2 branch. If you have fatty liver, it can make that worse.
    AbbyDear likes this.
  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    No, the mutations are genetic. You're born with them and will have the same ones all of your life. They don't change, which is why you only need to get a DNA test such as 23andme once.
    Valentijn likes this.
  14. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Oh, well then, what does "working on them" mean?

    And have you ever heard of something like radiation causing genetic damage?
  15. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Taking supplements to bypass the mutations. For example, if you have MTHFR mutations, you will have trouble converting more complex forms of folate into methylfolate. Methylfolate is the final form of folate that your body uses. Depending on your mutations, you could have a partial block from 30-70%. So you would want to supplement with methylfolate to help bypass the MTHFR mutation and get things running at 100%.

    Try watching my Methylation Made Easy video series, and see if that helps with understanding this. The link is in my signature.
    Valentijn likes this.
  16. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Okay, thanks!
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I guess because I read Chris Masterjohn's articles on choline, fatty liver, methylation, etc,
    http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/12/meeting-choline-requirement-eggs-organs.html
    early on while starting down this path, I was looking at things differently.
    Also, with getting off gluten and dairy, I'm all of a sudden realizing how much I don't know. It's a very strange feeling. I almost felt like I was going to go crazy about the second and third day after getting off of each of them. Really quite a trip I never want to take again. I don't know what tomorrow's going to be like.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta,

    In all my looking up about pau d'arco I've never found anyone to find it unsafe. I looked at the link you provided about internal bleeding, and all causes mentioned were trauma. Nothing about pau d'arco. You can make a tea out of it and replace all your liquids, and probably get better from a lot of different stuff.

    I have no idea. Believe what you want. However, if the problem is lack of MeCbl, AdoCbl. l-methylfolate or LCF, NOTHING at all can replace them and heal anybody from the deficiencies. A person with these things have usually had years or decades of nothing working at all and lots of bad reactions to many of the things

    If the deadlock quartet undoes partial methylation block and methytrap and partial ATP block in hours, then the effects should remain, right? If you undo the block, you're good? Is that what undoing the block means?

    It lasts as long as you take the items needed in the combinations and amounts needed. MeCbl deficiency symptoms start returning around the third day without. With methylfolate and it's 3 hour serum halflife, symptoms can start retuning within a day or 3. LCF deficiency symptoms start coming on about the 3rd day as well. In about 30 days the serum level can return to the point of methyltrap being re-established. By taking the nutrients doesn't cure the cause of the deficiencies, they merely temporarily replace the items.

    You do make the deadlock quartet sound easy, but I've seen so many people not do well with it. Are you sure it's undoing the blocks

    Well first, partial methylation block, methyl-trap and partial ATP block (mito malfunction? or anything else one might want to call it) are all to one degree or another hypothetical, in some cases for 50 years or more. Many things, many symptoms, many studies, depending upon how interpreted and the experience of thousands and thousands of people appear to back up. The Deadlock Quartet is not easy. That is a major aspect of the problem. My internist has watched with amazement but says that it is almost impossible to get good compliance with 3 meds on different schedules each day much less something with dozens of different items in some critical time relationships to each other.

    So realizing that all three of these items, as well as the hypothetical paradoxical folate deficiency, are largely recognized by inferance from symptoms or certain biochemical signatures. So the evidence for methyl block are things like low glutathione (Rich), high MCV and other blood changes, presence of excessive homocysteine is usually a marker for a methylation breakdown, MMA a marker for the breakdown of making ATP. From excess MMA and fatigue it can be inferred that not enough ATP is getting made. Lack of ATP disables hundreds of enzymes which cause hundreds of different kinds of failures which we all see the effects of every day.

    Have your genuinely healthy friends, ones with NONE of these symptoms we have, try them. Approximately 20% will respond to a noticeable amount and almost always say "I had forgotten about those because my doctor said they were non-specific and meant nothing" or "I'd forgotten about how tired I've been getting". The rest will say "What is all the fuss about. These do nothing at all." or something approximating that. The doses I've used on that test are typically 1-3mg of MeCbl/AdoCbl 5mg and 10mg made no difference in any way and nobody could distinguish the difference at first dose.

    Those that have these symptoms typically react immediately, about 95%, and often like a ton of bricks intensity. The other 5% react to some other deficient vitamin or nutrient or combinations of the same. Vitamin D is a common one, Biotin, SAM-e, TMG, magnesium, zinc, vit C.

    When you have 600 or thereabouts biochemical processes starting all at once it can hit like a ton of bricks. The most unexpected thing I have seen is the huge difference LCF makes for most and that only about 10% find that ALCAR works instead. That points exactly at the transport of fat for Krebs cycle and perhaps some possible genetic difficulty in synthesizing the LCF form. It must be absorbed in an empty stomach as it is merely digested to amino acids if eaten with food or at least it acts that way.

    The various pathways breakdown into about half a dozen main ones with variations farther down the path in massive quantity. The most common types of reactions people have are predictable. That they are going to have a major response is very predictable in advance.

    The two items below are from the collected affects, regardless of whether they agree with my hypothetical basis or not, their responses whether called intolerable side effects or flags of healing and startup responses, they almost always fit right in. One person's "detox" is another persons induced deficiencies of potassium and folate that can be corrected, among other things.


    B12 ZONES – Version 3.0 10/26/2012

    This is the recent re-conceptualization taking recent knowledge into account

    I. ACTIVE TRANSPORT ONLY ZONE - Oral or injected cyanocbl or hydroxcbl, about 10mcg possible absorption via active means per meal and ends up transported by HTCII and subject to the body’s triage methods. Weakly dose proportionate up to doses of 125mcg orally, saturating the active transport system. Limited symptom effectiveness.

    II. DIFFUSION – BODY TRANSPORT ZONE - Sublingual proven effective (5 star) methylb12 and adenosylb12 500mcg (approx 100mcg absorbed) or 100mcg injection. Threshold dose for “turning on healing”. Strongly dose proportionate 1-100mcg absorbed. Moderately dose proportionate 100-3000mcg absorbed, weakly dose proportionate 3000-20,000?mcg absorbed.

    III. DIFFUSION CSF/CNS TRANSPORT ZONE – An estimated serum cobalamin level of 100,000pg/ml to 200,000pg/ml maintained 24/7. 7.5mg QID, 10mg TID or 15mg BID of 5 star mb12 has worked for many trying it. Threshold effect at between 6 and 7.5mg SC injection.

    IV. INTRATHECAL INJECTION 2.5MG METHYLB12– Japanese research has tried this and found effectiveness lasted 3 months to 4 years (latest report)




    THE 95% REASONS B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES FAIL

    Version 2.0 - 03/10/11, Version 2.1 - 05/08/11. Version 3.0 – 10/25/2012, Version 3.1 10/26/2012, Version 11/05/2012 3.2



    1) They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research validating their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10-30mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesn’t work, oh well, that’s the accepted therapy. There is no dose proportionate healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzymes or ATP

    2) They take active b12 as an oral tablet reducing absorption to below 1%. A 1000mcg active b12 oral tablet might bind as much as 10mcg of b12. Again the b12 has to be squeezed through a keyhole that limits the amount and is subject to binding problems in the person whether genetic or acquired.3. They take a sublingual tablet of active b12 and chew it or slurp it down quickly reducing absorption back to that same 1% and limited to binding capacity. With sublingual tablets absorption is proportionate to time in contact with tissues. I performed a series of absorption tests comparing sublingual absorption to injection via hypersensitive response and urine colorimetry.

    3) Of the many brands of sublingual methylb12 only some are very effective. Some are completely ineffective and some have a little effect.

    4) For injectable methylb12, if it is exposed to too much light (very little light actually is too much) it breaks down. Broken down methylb12 is hydroxyb12. It doesn’t work at healing brain/cord problems of those who have a presumed low CSF cobalamin level. That requires a flood of unbound methylb12 and adenosylb12 (2 separate deficiencies) that can enter by diffusion. Adenosylb12 from sublinguals can ride along with injected methylb12.

    5) They don’t take BOTH active b12s.

    6) They don’t take enough active b12s for the purpose.

    7) Lack of methylfolate

    8) Lack of sufficient Methylfolate, a dose can start more healing than the same dose can complete.

    9) Paradoxical Folate Deficiency - Folic acid is taken which can block at least 10 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms. Folinic acid is taken which can block at least 10-20 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.

    10) Lack of l-carnitine fumarate (rarely ALCAR), the 4th of the Deadlock Quartet

    11) Lack of other critical cofactors.

    12) Lack of basic cofactors

    13) Glutathione, glutathione direct precursors, NAC and /or whey is taken causing what is often called "detox" while actually being induced folate and b12 deficiencies.

    14) Having many additional supplements and herbs of unknown interactions and effects.
    AbbyDear likes this.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Radiation can damage individual genes in random ways. It does not cause the polymorphisms that we are talking about here present in every cell in your body except blood cells.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta,

    The faulty replication of genes caused by folate and/or MeCbl deficiencies is suspected of causing some cancers. Research is ongoing. Cervical cell abnormalities caused by MeCbl deficiency show up on PAP tests.

    Fatty liver is usually associated with alcoholism which causes a blood profile that can be mistaken for b12 deficiency. Alcoholism can cause multiple vitamin (ALL of them), protein deficiencies, mineral deficiencies, everything nutritional deficient, as it provides a greater and greater percentage of empty calories, like eating pure sugar.

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