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What is the lowest amount of B12 you have heard of people starting with?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by boo85, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    I seem to be really sensitive to B12. I can only take 2.5mcg per day at the moment.

    Have you heard of others needing to start from this low amount?
     
    Adlyfrost likes this.
  2. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    I've read of people here taking literal crumbs to start out so you're not the only one.
     
    Misfit Toy likes this.
  3. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    If you are sensitive to it, that means your body needs it.

    For me, the early experience was that it would take 1 - 2 weeks to adjust to whatever amount I added, no matter how small. Then I would increase a tiny amount -- the same amount, something easy to manage, like a half a pill or whatever, so the amount is not changing too much all the time -- and then later, I found that the more you take it, the shorter the adjustment phase will get. Pretty soon it's only 2 days to adjust, so if you increase a dose you only need a weekend. Eventually you might not even notice an increased dose, although I've never gotten to that stage.

    So it's not the amount, it's the process, the method, and how you can best take care of yourself. You have a lifetime to build up the amount you take.

    Just remember to take enough potassium to offset the side-effects and set time aside to cope with it without too much stress, anxiety, and muscle cramping. Don't push yourself. I had many days of waking up feeling sick or getting incredible anxiety at various times, but that was before we know that potassium would help. It's very central to the process, in whatever form you can manage to take it in.

    I typically go to bed with a 1/2 banana and a cup of coconut water, in case I wake up and am sweating or muscles cramping or feeling suddenly wide awake -- potassium helps those.
     
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  4. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Also, you need to be taking a B-multi or other Bs separately for a balance.
     
  5. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    @Victronix how much B12 did you start with and how much are you taking now?

    Also, the other night a few weeks after starting B12 again, even at miniscule amounts, less than 10mcg per day, I woke up an hour after falling asleep and felt really panicked, like I was in a movie, like I was going to die. My head felt really heavy and I had muscle pain going down my leg to my big toe (never felt that before.) I think it was low potassium... Luckily I was able to sleep it off, but it was so scary.

    Does this mean the B12 is working if I am getting reactions like that?

    On the days where you would have incredible anxiety? Was that from low potassium? How much potassium do you take per day?

    Last year, while on B12, I wasn't supplementing with potassium and my anxiety was so bad, I felt petrified, like no anxiety attack ever before. Like just raw fear...

    Also, do you think you could please take a look at my thread here - http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/potassium-questions.32522/#post-502722
     
    Adlyfrost likes this.
  6. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    I probably started with less than 500 mcg.

    Yes, anxiety when not taking potassium means B-12 is working. I don't know why the potassium is necessary, and there are a few theories, but the majority of people really do need it with methylation.

    It's interesting how low potassium does cause panic and fear -- it alters your thought process. I can tell if I wake up at night feeling totally wide awake almost instantly, not groggy, that it's low potassium. It's more obvious if I'm sweating and heart pounding and maybe feeling suddenly worried or anxious, and it's most obvious when a muscle, usually a leg or foot muscle, starts to cramp.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Are you sure about this? You get around 80 mcg of B12 in portion of liver, and something like 100 mcg of B12 in a multivitamin or B complex tablet. Does eating liver or taking multivits also precipitate these effects in you?
     
  8. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    This gives me some hope for the day. Thanks Victronix!

     
  9. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    What form of B12 were you using? I'm considering adB12 or hydroxocobalamin but it is not ideal. Not sure if I should just stick it out with methylB12 or try the other 2 forms first. I have similar reaction. I know Fred's opinion is to stick it out. I wonder if taking the adB12 first would be helpful for these start-up side-effects?

    Certainly not willing to write off methylB12- it is the active form. But my muscles are stiff, I am crying for no reason and feel like a basket case. Nerves frazzled. Procrastinating driving on highway today. Get panic attacks from some potassium supplements too- gotta go slow on potassium. Sensitive to everything. So glad I am not alone!
     
  10. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    I could not tolerate even 1mcg of B12 from supplements. For the first couple years, I took clam juice, 1/2 teaspoon per day, which is about 1mcg but gentler on my body. I just recently graduated to 1mcg of B12 from supps.

    @Caladonia, too, had to start very low, IIRC. She has an excellent writeup in her sig file.
     
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  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi @boo85 , I see I was tagged, but Nila misspelled my name.

    I was getting an anxiety/stress response from even 1mcg of B12. I did the CBS protocol for a few months, and then was able to tolerate more B12. Now I'm doing about 16mcg of methylcobalamin and 4 mcg of adenosyl per day. I should be able to tolerate more once all my toxic metals are out.

    Check "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation" in my signature below to see if you can debug what might be going on.

    I have many other useful links in my signature. The top four outline a "Yasko lite" program, which is what I'm doing.
     
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  12. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Whoops! Sorry!

    I am glad you found your way here despite me :)
     
  13. ilfc

    ilfc

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    Hello Boo85, I am curious how you are doing on the low b12 dose? I was recently diagnosed with Pernicious Anemia, however every time I take b12 something happens. First after 10 days on methyl b12 5000ug daily I broke out in a huge rash, it took 6 weeks to go away after stopping totally. Then my GP tried a cyano injection 1000ug and I had a terrible reaction to it. After that I tried the methyl liquid and after about 4 days I woke up severely depressed and psychotic . I had never had terrible reactions like that before, I was having the worst thoughts ever. I stopped taking everything on Oct 8th and slowly improved to the point I began to feel normal. Yesterday I tried 300ug of Hydroxy B12 at 7am and the anxiety came back, not as severe but enough to be noticeable. I felt edgy or jittery all day and had trouble sleeping. I also noticed itching and tingling of my face and lips etc. I am sure that I am very sensitive to the b12.

    I don't know how low to start? Any advice is appreciated.
     
  14. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Just keep experimenting until you find a dose that you are comfortable with. That's what I did. If you still have some of the liquid, you can dilute it easily. Although IIUC, some people have a problem with the methyl form.

    Since 300 was so bad for you, I would suggest trying about 1mcg. Wait 2 hours, and if you feel ok try a little more. Make sure the LAST dose is not too long after noon, if you want to sleep at night :).

    You can also take a tiny dose of niacin to counteract the b12 when you take too much. Not too much niacin!

    Even the microdoses of b12 that are all I can tolerate do wonders for me, and I think this is true for @caledonia too. It's worth working on.
     
  15. caledonia

    caledonia

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    @boo85 Yes, extremely low doses are working great for me. Please read Start Low and Go Slow linked in my signature below. These are the methods I've developed to create very small doses.

    There is another one I haven't listed yet, called the Toothpick Method. You wet the end of a toothpick and dip it into the powdered supplement so as to pick up a few grains. This would be equivalent to 1/256 of one capsule. Of course, this only works for powders (capsules or crushed tablets).

    If you can't tolerate even 1mcg of methylcobalamin, I would suspect CBS issues and do treatment for that. It worked for me. Now I can tolerate somewhat more, but it's still extremely low. But I'm also getting great results. Everyone is different.
     
    Misfit Toy likes this.
  16. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I wonder... if one can only tolerate a few mcgs of B12, wouldn't it be better to increment the food with high B12 instead of struggling with supplements?

    Beef has 5-6mcg (per 100g) and fish like mackarel has almost 20mcg. If one likes/can have clams... they mother nature's methyl-B12 supplements. (~ 100mcg) :)
     
  17. ilfc

    ilfc

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    Thank you for the advice, I am thinking of having genetic testign d
     
  18. ilfc

    ilfc

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    Thank you all for the advice, I months past I was able to handle doses of methly in the short term, but the reactions started after I built up some storage. I am going to start the toothpick method soon using hydroxycobalamin. Should I try methyl folate with it as well?

    I am also thinking of having genetic testing done to be sure. Does anyone recommend Amy Yasko vs 23 and me. Cost isn't an issue I just want the best information.

    Appreciate all the advice.
     
  19. caledonia

    caledonia

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    If cost is not an issue, there are a few SNPs on Yasko's test that 23andme no longer does. One of those is SHMT, which is one of the "leaky gut" genes.

    If you get 23andme, then in addition to the Methylation Anaylsis, you can run the Detox Analysis on GeneticGenie and pickup what meds and toxins you might have trouble with, as well any glutathione mutations. In addition, there are some more genes you can get off Sterling's App from MTHFRsupport - one of those is HLA for celiac or gluten intolerance, as well as the ACE deletion for salt sensitivity causing high blood pressure.

    So basically, if cost is not an issue, get both. If you're on a budget, 23andme is the best bang for the buck.

    =-==-=-=
    As far as do you start B12 or methylfolate first or together, the latest info from Ben Lynch is to start them together. I think I would start one or the other first for a few days just to test for tolerance, before adding the next one. The methylation reaction won't really get going unless you're taking both, unless you have some stores of one or the other available to complete the reaction.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  20. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    I too had bad reactions to B12. It would cause my anxiety to skyrocket. I'd be in bed shaking, scared someone was going to walk through the door at any moment.

    Is 5000ug the same as 5000mcg B12?

    If so, that is a huge, huge amount. And if you are having reactions to 300mcg B12, then you should really be going on a lower dose. Start on the lowest dose possible. I have a 1000mcg methylB12 tablet and use a tablet splitter to cut it into 8ths which equals 125mcg per dose. You can buy tablet splitters from the pharmacy. Another alternative is to take two big metal spoons, and crush the tablet between them, then visually divide the powdered tablet into 10 equal doses.

    But it can be a bit hard to get it exact, especially if you want only a 20mcg dose out of a 1000mcg tablet. Another option is to go back to the pharmacy and buy a 500mcg methylB12 tablet, that way the dose is already only half as big, even before having to split up the tablet.

    But I would suggest starting at 50mcg or even 20mcg, coupled with a 1/3 of the B12 dose of methylfolate about an hour before that. So if you might take 17mcg of methylfolate in the morning, then an hour later take 50mcg of B12. Keep this up for a few weeks, then try upping your dose to 75mcg B12 and 25mcg folate. Taking methylfolate an hour beforehand gives the B12 something to work with.

    Do you take methylfolate, ilfc?

    Taking methylfolate really helped me. I'm up to 125mcg of B12 per day now without having too much of a reaction (detailed in this blog post) whereas this was too much for me to take before. I think methylfolate must have been what my body needed to use B12 properly.

    Low and slow is the way to go.
     

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