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What is the deal with diet?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by drob31, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    A new documentary on Netflix called "What the Health?" proclaims that meat, which is one of the core components of the paleo diet, is bad. In fact, not just red meat, but chicken and eggs. Combine eggs/chicken with vegetables and it's like the perfect paleo meal.

    This film calls all that into question. I thought I at least had diet figured out, now it seems I have no idea about anything.

    Even the autoimmune paleo diet was developed to combat autoimmune disease.
     
  2. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    There is no one right way to eat for everybody. Some people thrive on a high fat diet, others do better on a higher carb diet. Some seems to do well with a raw diet, for others it's a disaster. Some people are happy as vegetarians/vegans and others wreck their health eating that way. Some people are extremely sensitive to lectins, nightshades, dairy, casein, legumes, etc... while others can eat these things with no problem.

    One reason the human race has been so successful is our ability to adapt and eat whatever is available to us in various environments. Eat what you feel good about and don't worry.
     
    erin, belize44, Hutan and 9 others like this.
  3. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    Ah. Fad diets. Eat what you want. Eat everything. Food is not the enemy and food is not going to cure you. Gluten and dairy are not villains. Of course people will want to reply to this preaching their views.

    It's not about the diet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  4. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    This movie makes an interesting point about dairy causing autoimmune disease, and factory farmed meats doin the same.
     
  5. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    The other thing is that while everyone may have a slightly different opinion, it seems to me that the vast majority of people on PR are following a diet that is paleo-like, avoiding gluten and things that could trigger autoimmune conditions.
     
  6. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    Recently there was a CBC (canadian broadcaster) streaming a documentary on 'Clean Eating' - very insightful. Those who wrote books about diets are making a lot of money but there might not be sound science behind their claims. Throwing entire food groups out the window without very good reasons can come with unintended consequences.

    If your diet requires a book to follow the rules, then think about who benefits and who is verifying claims preached by the writer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  7. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    The movie actually shows how the very industries that create these foods, fund the government programs that put out the beneficial studies of these foods. It's all a conflict of interest.
     
    Lolo likes this.
  8. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    I am not one of them
     
    arewenearlythereyet likes this.
  9. bspg

    bspg Plant Queen

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    Eat what makes you feel and function best and cut out what doesn't. Just my two cents.
     
    ljimbo423, erin, TreePerson and 5 others like this.
  10. boombachi

    boombachi Senior Member

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    Could you just avoid factory farmed meats? I live in the uk where everything is labelled so much easier. Its more expensive so we don't eat meat every day. I eat free range eggs every day as they are much cheaper than meat. I do this more because of animal welfare but I also believe well kept healthy animals will provide healthier meat and milk.

    I don't eat much dairy anyway as I don't digest it well. I don't know what the evidence is connecting dairy and autoimmunity. Do a bit more research before cutting stuff out. There is a scare about virtually every food group. If you cut out dairy AND meat you may struggle to get enough protein and vitamin b12.
     
    erin, Hutan, justy and 1 other person like this.
  11. Marigold7

    Marigold7 Senior Member

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    Wise words. I stopped eating meat more than a very very few times a year way back. This was reinforced by the more recent scares with the oesophageal narrowing ( Hey ; been six months since my last episode so I am getting it right!) I eat what I need and what I enjoy; and on a very very limited budget....my menu relies on our wonderful "reduced" counters too! I enjoy what I eat. And yes, we tend to be scared of making ourselves worse. Going without essentials is more likely to do that than eating sensibly. Been there done that! Here in Ireland meat is relatively pure but the cost... And yes, I like to be able to look cows in the face.. not eaten lamb since I raised twin lambs.... would be like infanticide FOR ME
     
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  12. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    I don't drink milk...but that's because some teacher at school put me off it by letting it curdle in the sun. I eat butter, yoghurt, cheese (in moderation). I am definitely not lactose intolerant or any of the other popular dairy intolerances going around at the moment.

    my point is that I don't drink milk because it's bad for me or reacts somehow in my body...it's because I don't like it.

    What is tricky is that the brain will be very attuned to discriminating foods based on experience. This is because we have evolved to eat a varied diet and adapt to our environment. Sometimes the brain can be fooled and biased towards certain foods by mistake thinking it's bad for us when it's not. Once biased it's difficult to change that programming. I think you've got to try the food 15 times or something like that until your brain can reset and realise that the food is OK to eat after all.

    I think a lot of the diet book people tap into this and spin a load of fantasy pseudo science to convince us that there are complex rules to follow when really the rules are simple.

    Eat what makes you feel good and a varied diet.
     
    belize44, bspg and Kati like this.
  13. Marigold7

    Marigold7 Senior Member

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    Agree fully but honestly I have no time or energy or money re diet. I think too that so many of us would walk upside down if someone suggested it would help us, so desperate are we. So motivated are we to get any alleviation. My own diet is fairly basic and staple now. And probably to many would be montoonous... I cannot digest fresh fruit any more and bulky veg are going the same way; old age! And the stench of chemicals is a constant irk. So I just eat when and what I can now. Milk I love,but not full fat. Love the flavoured milks but rare as they cost too much. Hey we do OK! :):hug::angel:
     
  14. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    Food has always played a big role in my disease, and changing food is also a good way of changing our dysfunctionning gut microbiome in order to improve it.
    For the CFS subgroup with high levels of blood lactates after eating or exercise, food with lactates/lactose are not advised:

    This means for example all the processed foods, and all the dairy products.

    Of course, we should avoid food with pesticids and eat only organic, and we should avoid food rich in heavy metals like large carnivorous fish, and fishes living in silt...
     
    erin likes this.
  15. Ysabelle-S

    Ysabelle-S Highly Vexatious

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    I looked this documentary up, so here are useful links for anyone who wants background:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5541848/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Health

    http://www.whatthehealthfilm.com/

    Vegan Filmmakers Raise Money to Qualify for Oscars:
    http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=7721&catId=1

    Okay, so I haven't looked too much at the material, but it looks like there's a political agenda here relating to the promotion of veganism. I personally don't think veganism is the best diet for ME sufferers, but we're all different so some might do fine on it. Since you have health issues relating to energy production I think you should just ignore this documentary if you don't want to give up meat, and follow whatever diet you want.

    For myself, I had constant stomach upsets so gave up gluten, and the stomach upsets and diarrhoea went away. I gave up caffeine when I first fell ill because it caused a neuro problems I hadn't had before the virus. Giving it up improved those symptoms. I don't take dairy milk because it causes me to have constant catarrh, so I'm always clearing my throat, and it could really interfere with sleep. All of these actions were practical, addressing symptoms/aggravators. Unless like me you have things actually causing more symptoms/making present symptoms worse, then there's no reason to give up stuff. I don't eat meat, but it has nothing to do with health. It's just a preference. I eat fish, eggs, and I can tolerate butter and cheese if I don't eat too much. I actually used to love milk, but for many years it had been leaving a sour taste in my mouth that wasn't there before. I couldn't drink it raw anymore. It was horrible.

    I think unless you want to try out the likes of paleo or keto diets, and you seem to be interested in the former, then the best thing is just to eat as little non-processed food as possible, and as much fresh produce as you can, and have a varied diet. Humans have been eating meat for god knows how long. I think it's a bit late to worry about it.
     
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  16. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    So lets see, people make decisions based on what feels right to them (gut feelings), ignore any conflicting information (confirmation bias) then develop philosophies based on these theories. Of course your going to get conflicting ideas, its all based on faulty logic. Garbage in, garbage out.
    That said since we don't genetically know what we are designed to eat (like many animals do) we need good science to figure it out (though much of science is also built on false premises). What makes the most sense is we need certain nutrients and the paleo type diet is probably closest to correct, but modern food is processed, factory farmed and monocultured/bred making it not quite the same as our ancestors would have had. Also grains, processed sugar, trans fats and so forth are recent and likely not ideal health foods. Also eating the same things for generations may affect what our bodies are designed for, someone had an interesting premise that we should be eating what our ethnic ancestors have been eating because our bodies have adapted to it. It may be true, it may not be.
    We cannot come to conclusions because we lack the necessary information to do so, leaving us to make best guesses and most people do this as stated above.
    Its likely most vegetables are good for us, some fruit (but lets not forget selective breeding has given us fruit that never existed before), free range meats, and water. Items to avoid would be grains, excess carbohydrates, sugar, alcohol, artificial sweeteners, trans fats, juices, chocolate (eek). Dairy is hard to say, calcium and other nutrients are required but its hard to envision cavemen having dairy to consume.
    Is there a way to determine the ideal diet, its hard to say, we are still figuring out whats in foods, various ingredients have been found to have effects on the body but are not considered vitamins, form Quercetin to Lycopene to Anthocyanins to infinite others.
     
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  17. Marigold7

    Marigold7 Senior Member

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    Well if I followed YOUR ideas I would starve to death simply. Unrealistic and excessively limiting. I lived on my own produce, goat milk, eggs from my hens for years and was no better for it.

    Chocolate is great, Period...

    And the next wave of ideas will be different.

    Also like many I am severely challenged financially. These ideas cost .

    I have no sensitivity to grains or lactose etc etc etc

    OK off to find some good strong coffee with milk, and whatever food i have in that appeals..leaving thee to the theories and living with the reality
     
  18. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Personally became vegan at age 10, simply because I looked a bit to close at the heartless process of butchering nearby. At age 41 I came down with a PAD, a kind of CVD which gave me a 60% walking-disability, and knew veganism somehow hasn't helped me to stay healthy.

    Therefore tried following these advises. First by twice Nobel price winner Linus Pauling (from his 1986 book):

    ..and by Cardiologist William Davis (also makes money with books now..)

    Well, long story short, though old habits die hard and couldn't really make meat part of my diet again, at least added regular cheese, eggs, fish, healthy fats and red wine again, along with other recommendations and supplementation. My walking-disability has been revoked again.

    I too believe in bio-chemical individuality - ones medicine might be another's poison.
     
  19. DoggerFisher

    DoggerFisher Senior Member

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    I once had a tai chi teacher who made the point that if you're healthy you can basically digest pretty much anything! i think he was referring to iron filings at the time.
    just for info only last time i was really sick i did dairy / gluten / sugar / caffeine exclusion (tea only anyway as coffee keeps me wide awake) and the only difference was that i stopped milk because i couldn't stand the smell of it anymore - i still eat cheese, yoghurt, cream. nothing else i excluded made any difference and I noticed no change when they were re-introduced. I had also done a wholefood overhaul. I have never eaten much processed stuff anyhoo. I have also tried vegan and healing with wholefood type diet. the one that has made the most dramatic difference in all this time (for me! not necessarily anyone else!) was lowering carbs and upping fat so-called "keto" which vastly improved my neuro/CNS symptoms. However I seem more physically tired so I'm still juggling with it a bit - but having a brain means i can work... earn money etc, you all know!
     
    erin likes this.
  20. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    I did not say any of this will help ME/CFS, in fact its harder for us to adhere to because the work involved will burn most of us to a crisp.

    I also like chocolate, i am simply saying its a relatively recent addition to the human diet.

    I am not saying my ideas are sacrosanct, i simply said how most people come up with ideas, what ideas i have and why. I am also not infallible, but i hope my explanations at least make sense. If i am wrong please tell me where so i can do better.

    I also did not say this is a cheap diet.

    The fact that lactose tolerance is a relatively recent change to the human genome (thanks for the reminder) suggests we were not designed to consume dairy. Some ethnicities still have trouble with dairy (on average). This also does suggest our dietary abilities are adaptable, though i suspect we still need core nutrients and we have no idea if we have discovered them all yet.

    Vitamin K2 is an interesting nutrient most people get very little of, so far its not legally considered essential but it does a few unique things which suggests its essential, yet its hard to get from the diet. That said if we are more free range meat we would get more of it (its not found in any vegetable), but we have not even determined an ideal dosage, though i don't know if any meat would provide optimal dosages, but then again our ancestors probably ate a variety of meats, not just the standard ones we get at the supermarket. Though some other vitamins/nutirents are also hard to get even from a "good" diet which is why foods are fortified with them (iodine comes to mind).
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017

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