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What is in red meat, eggs, cheese, but not in chicken?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by NilaJones, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Ok, I looked it up. I don't think I have reactions to any of those foods, but still too fuzzyheaded to think sensibly.
  2. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    This article will do it better justice that I could: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.full
    Since I appear to have a severe copper deficiency and the enzymes that metabolize histamine (DAO and HNMY) need copper cofactors, I have hopes that curing my copper deficiency will cure my histamine intolerance! I can dream, can't I? Here's the paper on copper: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.full I had a 24-hour urine test that couldn't be done because there wasn't enough copper to detect it.

    You know, I think if you only try each for a couple of days, you probably don't risk very much in the way of toxicity. For me, the results were unmistakeable. Let me know how you do! :)
  3. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Whew.

    I took some niacin last night. A wild ride. The flush was followed by an INTENSE flare up of my whole body inflammation problem, which lasted 8 hours at its worst and is still with me today. Worse than it has been since celebrex came on the market a dozen or so years ago. I had to support my jaw with my other hand when brushing my teeth, for example, because the pain was too intense otherwise.

    Not sure if it's related or separate, but also intense stomach pain. I took a ton of DGL, and took antacid for the first time in 10 years or so. Flashbacks to the decades when antacid accounted for more than 50% of my daily calories. I am scared to death about what I may have done to my gut, now.

    I feel so foolish that I did not look up, ahead of time, what effect niacin could have on my gut. It has been doing fine this year, for the first time in 26 years, and I forgot to think of myself as a person who needed to do that.

    I learned something, though, that histamine seems to play a major role in my inflammation problem. It's been very disabling, so having a new clue about it is a big deal. I am not quite sure what to do with this new clue... but I am glad we are here talking about histamine! :).

    Have you checked out the mast cell forum here? What do you make of that stuff?
  4. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    I see what you mean by the histamine diet being restrictive! How long did you need to be on it before noticing improvement? I am hoping to get a sense on how I should plan my groceries :).

    It also excludes some of the foods that have been very helpful to me -- yogurt, spinach, etc.

    And I see that my dinner last night, at the time I took the niacin, was very high in histamine :/.
    Critterina likes this.
  5. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I'm fairly sure arachidonic acid is peanut oil.
  6. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    From what I read on wikipedia, sounds like arachidonic acid would increase my inflammation problem, which is a no go for me. Though peanuts do not.
  7. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I have not. I'm sort of hoping it doesn't apply to me....head in the sand....etc. Last night I looked up some CYP17A1 mutations. It was too much. I can only take so much truth at a time.

    Hey I'd like to like your post there, but you had such a bad reaction - liking it seems to me kind of mean, doesn't it?:confused:
  8. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I actually have just limited the quantity of the high histamine foods, and in a day or so, without being perfect, I could tell a huge difference. For example, I made a stew the day I found that article. I still ate it the next day, kept it really cold, and then fed it to my friend and myself a day or two later. But I also know that beef was only hung for 2 weeks before cutting and freezing (my friends did it.) And I didn't have any other histamines in the meal. I also haven't had a problem usually, with tuna or sardines. But just watching how I react is very informative.

    I used to live on yogurt and spinach and tomatoes, among other things, mostly fruits and veggies and dairy, as I don't have a strong hunger for grains and meat is just too much bother. They were helpful then, but spinach and tomatoes will push me to 80% lung function and stopped up sinuses within about 10 minutes.

    Yes, it's restrictive, but I've regained the hope that some day I'll be able to have fresh milk again, :), and ice cream! :thumbsup: which I thought I might have to give up for life.

    I have to say, though, that overall it's been an ironic twist of fate for someone with a microbiology degree not to be able to do the edible science experiments surrounding fermentation.

    Oh, one thing I noticed the end of last year, was that I react to all kinds of peppers - bell, anaheim, chili, paprika. I was first hopeful because peppers weren't on the list, but then I saw the paprika and chili - and if it's high in histamine when it's dry, it can't be that much better when it's fresh. It seems only the cooked meat follows that rule.

    Oh, I was also initially discouraged because sourdough is fermented before it's cooked - that's what makes it sour - and I've finally created a great culture, something very difficult for someone who grew up near San Francisco. But I made a loaf and it didn't bother me. And I put some butter on it!!! :redface:
  9. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I read that too. Arachidonic is polyunsaturated, peanut oil is saturated. But if you have a history of inflammatory disease, you should stay away from the arachidonic. You could still use peanut oil if it doesn't bother you.
  10. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    I am SO glad that the sourdough bread worked for you! I used to make my own, too, from my own culture. But quitting gluten has helped me a lot.

    That's encouraging, that I may only have to try the diet for a few days :).

    I do have this problem, though, that clams are the only source of b12 I have found that I can tolerate...
    Critterina likes this.
  11. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    NilaJones,

    I hope you do only have to try it for a few days. Apparently some people get fast results, some have to do it for about 4 weeks.

    When you cut down the other high histamine foods, you may be able to tolerate either b12 supplements or clams. There is no such thing as a histamine-free diet. It's just a matter of controlling quantities of histamine. Unlike allergies, where a few molecules may set you off, histamines are dose-dependent. It may just be a balancing act. And it could be that if you find a good brand of clams and never keep them in the fridge after they are opened that you'll be OK.

    I could tell a major difference the week I just gave up dairy (and sugar, peanuts and high-fructose corn syrup), and it was probably just the fermented stuff giving me problems. I don't know, I haven't tested fresh milk yet, but I got away with the small amount of butter just recently. But even when I was still eating the spinach and tomatoes, being off the dairy I was enough better that I could get off my breathing meds (Foradil, Albuterol). The mystery has remained for 10 months now, why I kept reacting some of the time. This gives me such hope.

    My nurse practitioner may be starting to let go of the idea that I have gluten or gliaden sensitivities. I've done the elimination diet and totally don't react to wheat, which I believe has both. I do react to oats, or at least did, when I did the elimination diet, but who knows what histamines I was eating then? Besides, I have respiratory, not gut, reactions to it.

    I've been on and off diets all my life for obesity (since age 3), so food restrictions, either quantity or content, aren't new to me. Since I developed this breathing problem, I've experimented about 6 different ways of eating - TCM warm foods to dispell cold and phelgm, the no sugar/dairy/peanuts/HFCS, the elimination diet, a couple others, low sulfur for a week, and now low histamine. I'm sort of beyond caring what I eat, and what my sister used to call "sick and tired of being sick and tired", and if there were a good liquid meal replacement I could use, there are days that I would probably do it. I really hate to say goodbye to tomatoes and spinach and peppers. Living in the Southwest US, those are the staples of life. What, no salsa? No hot sauce? No mole'? My attitude toward sandwiches has been "give me some lettuce and tomato, and I don't care what else you put on it." But it's like when I had to give up beer (due to anaphylactic reaction): nothing beats breathing. Being able to breathe is one of the best positive behavioral reinforcements I've found.
  12. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Yeah, that sounds even more motivating than not feeling sick as a dog!

    Hi Critterina, and everyone :).

    I see I am still doing my thing or periodically 'hiding' from the forum. I get easily overwhelmed, here! But today I figured I could check in, and I kinda miss y'all :).

    I am doing well, progressing. I went back on b12 (clams) yesterday after being off it for a week, to make sure going off it didn't cause me to crash. I was off all methylation supps, even multi, and I will add stuff in gradually.

    One thing I have learned is that b12 alone, without any folate except in food, helps with my severe inflammation problem -- as does folate alone, I already knew. Does that mean anything to anyone? I am not sure what to make of it :).

    I haven't tried the creatine or BCAAs or histamine diet yet... one thing at a time, for cleanest data :). My stomach is also still healing from the niacin, and I read that the first two can irritate it, so they may have to wait a while.

    I got some MgCl, and used it to make 'magnesium oil'. But 1.4 teaspoon of the mgcl, mixed in water and applied topically, seems to be much less effective than 1/4 t of mg citrate taken orally, as measured by restless legs symptoms. Has anybody else found that they don't absorb magnesium oil better than, or as well as, oral magnesium?

    Anyway, I am psyched about feeling like I can safely proceed with the methylation :). And grateful for any thoughts or ideas people want to share, here or in PM!

    PS, @catalonia: I want to reread our discussion and pick it up again, but am feeling tired right now. Hugs :).
    Valentijn and Critterina like this.
  13. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Always nice when you drop in, NilaJones,

    The fact that either MTHF or MB12 alone help with inflammation is a mystery to me.

    You don't keep an opened container of clams in the fridge overnight, do you? Histamine builds up with time after they have been cooked. You could tolerate the first serving but not the last, if you're histamine intolerant.

    Just a passing thought about the BCAAs. Bodybuilders take them on an empty stomach sometimes, which might be more irritating than taking them with meals. I take the with meals, per the instructions on the bottle (Source Naturals).

    Glad to hear you're feeling better!
    Valentijn likes this.

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