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What Is Faith?

Discussion in 'Spirituality and ME/CFS' started by eword, Dec 30, 2010.

  1. eword

    eword

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    Hebrews 11:1(NKJV) - Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    If faith has substance, evidence or proof, that means that substance, evidence or proof is available to us. And what evidence or proof is there, that God heals or will heal you? The healing word or scriptures are clear evidence, that God heals and will heal you. The many promises of healing in the bible are your assurance, that God wants to, and he will heal you. If it wasn't God's will to heal, why did he promise healing? And if God healed people under the Old Covenant, which wasn't as good as the New Covenant, why should he not heal you, under a far better and improved covenant( Hebrews 8:6 )?

    Romans 10:17(NKJV) - So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

    If faith comes by hearing with your ears, that means faith does not come by not hearing. And it also means, that faith does not come any other way, but by hearing. So, can you possibly have faith, if you are not hearing and hearing the word or scriptures?
    Faith for healing comes by hearing, with your ears, the word of God on healing. You have to be hearing and hearing and hearing the word of God on healing, to get faith for healing. The more you hear the healing word or scriptures, the more your faith to receive healing grows and the sooner you get healed. You have to SPEAK or READ the healing word or scriptures aloud regularly to develop your faith for healing.

    Hebrews 11:6(NIV) - And without faith, it is impossible to please God.

    If you can't please God without faith, that means you can't get anything, from God without faith. And in order to please God or receive healing from God, you need faith and to have faith for healing, you need to be hearing and hearing and hearing the healing word or scriptures. So, can God heal you, if you are not hearing and hearing and hearing the healing word or scriptures?

    2 Corinthians 4:13(AMP) - I have believed, and therefore have I spoken. We too believe, and therefore we speak.

    In other words, the scripture above says, I have believed the healing word or scriptures, and therefore I have SPOKEN the healing word or scriptures. We too believe the healing word or scriptures and therefore we speak the healing word or scriptures. And If the people in the Bible spoke, what they believed, what should we be doing?
    If you believe the healing word or scriptures in your heart, then you have to SPEAK or READ them, so you can hear them with your ears, and remember, that is how faith comes.

    Psalm 116:10(AMP) - I believed and therefore have I spoken.

    Just believing is not enough, you have to SPEAK what you believe. The more you hear the word or scriptures, the more you believe them.

    2 Corinthians 5:7(NKJV) - For we walk by faith, not by sight.

    If our faith for healing, is based on what we see or feel, our we in faith? We walk by faith in the word or scriptures, regardless of what we see, hear, feel or smell. So, no matter what you feel like or what it looks like or how long it takes, you maintain or hold on to your faith in the healing word or scriptures. The situation or circumstance will always appear contrary to the word or scriptures, but if you continue SPEAKING or READING the word or scriptures aloud regularly, sooner or later you will prevail.

    Romans 1:17(NKJV) - The just shall live by faith.

    If believers shall live by faith, that means there is a possibility they may die without faith. Believers shall live by faith, in the word or scriptures. That also means believers shall be healed, by their faith, in the healing word or scriptures and that believers will not be healed without faith in the healing word or scriptures.

    www.deathandlife.org/healing.html
     
  2. 3CFIDS@ourhouse

    3CFIDS@ourhouse still me

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    i wanted to share some thoughts on this post. I am a Christian, but I think it is not only damaging, but also unbiblical to say that God promises healing to all in this life. Every one of us is going to die a physical death, so physical healing is only, as Joni Eareckson Tada says, "a temporary fix". The healing most talked about in the Bible is the healing of our souls. Many of the verses used by some to say that everyone can be physically healed refer to the incredible eternal healing that God offers to all through faith in Christ. In heaven, there is no death, no tears, no pain, no illness. Jesus said, "In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world." He didn't say that physical health and prosperity are promises for this life. In fact, His own life of poverty and suffering for our sake show us that this world is not what He's most interested in! Paul was used by God in powerful ways, but he was never healed of his disability. Was that for lack of faith? When Paul asked for healing, God said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Is God more glorified when He heals someone physically, or do we see more of God when we see people continue to suffer yet continue to love God and experience His love in ways that transform their lives? In my 10 years of CFS, I have learned more about the constant, faithful love of God, have experienced more of his comfort, have more joy in what is yet to come than I ever had in my healthy life. That is not of my own doing, it has been a gift God has graciously given. No, I would not have chosen this, and yes, it is painful, but as C.S. Lewis said, it is "a severe mercy". Faith believes that even when life hurts, God is good. It is the "evidence of things not seen", the certainty that in the end, it is all going to be made right if the healing of our souls has taken place.
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

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    I have faith in that the right thing comes to us at the right time in our lives.

    I am not a religious person, but I am a spiritual person. Healing of the Mind, Body & Spirit will come when we are ready to receive it.

    It may not come in this lifetime. But it WILL come. Of that gift's arrival, I am more certain than any other thing I have ever wished or imagined.

    The Gift of Healing comes in many forms. Just ensure you are open to receive one of these forms when it arrives.

    It may not be the type of Healing you were expecting.

    Being thankful for whatever comes to you is just as important as the ultimate gift of good Health & Recovery from ME/CFS/FM.
     
  4. Merry

    Merry Senior Member

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    When I read this a couple of days ago, I decided it is spam.

    Religious spam. Is nothing sacred?
     
  5. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Merry,

    Thank you very much for your post. Victoria, I could really relate to your post, and thought you made some really good points. 3CFIDS, thanks for your comments, especially the following:

    eword, it may not have been your intent, but your post is almost guaranteed to alienate a fairly large number of members here, including Christians. Here's the way I see things:

    A new member comes onto this board, doesn't fill out anything in their profile to let us know whether they have ME/CFS or not, and doesn't introduce themselves in any meaningful way. Then, without ever taking the time to get to know any of us, tries to persuade us (preach to us?) we can all be healed because this is what God wants. ????

    You might want to reconsider your approach.

    Wayne
     
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I think that what this can also mean is that the healing may not take place in this life , but our next life/after life, and having faith in that there is an after life where there is no pain and suffering. SOme of us suffer in this life and yes its a bugger but we have to keep holding on until we are blue in the knuckles. This illness i wish i didnt have must be a learning curve for us, i know its made me alot more empathetic towards other people suffering different illnesses and i dont judge them to quickly as people with cfs are judeged as freaks or lazy etc, all u have to do is eat right and exercise, u know what i mean. I think this person is trying to inspire us to stay positive, lets not judge them to quickly, their heart is in the right place.

    cheers!! 3cfids@ourhouse
     
  7. Merry

    Merry Senior Member

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    My apologies to eword and heapsreal if the eword posts are not spam.

    Not long ago, during a time when a discussion was going on about making the forums a warmer place, I vowed to be friendlier - and welcomed a piece of spam. Immediately leaves and possibly dolphin, possibly esther12, leapt into action to warn me. Apparently I came away from that experience thinking it's my mission to save others from the goofiness I have so often in my life succumbed to. I will desist.

    Still, having read eword's post above again, it sounds mechanical to me, as if a concordance app spilled out a list of verses and matched them with paragraghs of "exegesis."

    I don't like, either, that the eword post has as its signature a link to a ministry. So where's the human being, the PR member named eword?

    But as I have now for the second time broken my commandment to myself to never post on the Spirituality forum, I will shut up.
     
  8. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Regarding the link to the ministry... There are several sections on this online minstry website, with each one having the following at the end:

    *Please support this site with $1, by clicking on the button below.

    The intentions behind this may be innocent enough, but it just doesn't feel above board to me. Does eword deal with ME/CFS? Does eword post this very same material on other support groups/message boards, such as Lyme, heart disease, Parkinson's, etc.? It's hard to know a person's motives if they don't reveal who they are, or where they're coming from. It just feels out of place on this board.

    Wayne
     
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Hi Merry,
    No need to apologise, i understand what your getting at and yes Im anti spam as well as anti religion but believe in christianity if that makes sense. I didnt realise it had a link to a ministry and looking for donations etc, mmm, Im anti religion because alot of those organisations are about money making etc. I think its interesting that when u read the bible, Jesus doesnt go about raising money or trying to build flashy buildings to call his church. Yes im anti religions who do the hard sale on trying to recruit members, some are more full on then door to door salesman, and yes 3 post by the initial thread started is shonky. Religion is always a touchy subject
     
  10. eword

    eword

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    Thanks to all, who have taken the time to read and comment on my post. I would greatly appreciate it, if you can please provide scriptures to support your comments or opinions. For my part, I will not put out anything without scriptures to back it up. My blunt language, should not be mistaken for arrogance. I sincerely empathize with all, who are suffering, but this is my way of making myself clear. I look forward to a constructive and productive exchange.


    Att: 3CFIDS@ourhouse

    Acts 10:38(AMP) - How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth, with the Holy Spirit and power; how he went about doing good and curing all, who were harassed and oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

    Who was harassing and oppressing people with sickness and disease and who was curing them? Was God putting sickness on people and his son curing them or was it someone else putting the sickness on them?
    If anyone should know, the source and purpose of sickness and disease, Peter should have known? Peter was one of the disciples, and he travelled and ministered with Jesus. And according to Peter, sickness and disease is harassment and oppression from the Devil. Why didn't Peter blame sickness and disease on God or Jesus? And if the Devil harassed and oppressed people, with sickness and disease, in the past, who do you think, is harassing and oppressing people today, with sickness and disease? When did God take over the Devil's operation?

    Job 2:7(NKJV) - So, Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils, from the sole of his foot, to the crown of his head.

    Who afflicted Job with sickness and disease? Did God afflict Job or Did the Devil afflict Job? If Satan afflicted Job, with sickness and diseases, in the past, who do you think, is afflicting people today, with sickness and diseases? Is God, now doing, what Satan used to do in the past?

    2 Corinthians 12:7(NKJV) - .......a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me...........

    Where did Paul's suffering or the 'thorn in the flesh' come from? Was it from God or Satan? And who did Paul, accuse of tormenting him? Did Paul blame God or Satan for his suffering? And if Satan tormented Paul, in the past with sickness and disease, who do you think, is tormenting people today, with sickness and disease? Did Satan retire from his old job? When was his retirement party?

    Luke 13:16(AMP) - And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan had kept bound(sick), for eighteen years, be loosed(healed) from this bond(sickness) on the Sabbath?

    Who did Jesus accuse, of binding this woman, with sickness for eighteen years? Did Jesus blame God or Satan, for this woman's sickness? And if anyone in the world, should know, who is behind sickness and disease, shouldn't Jesus know? If Jesus didn't know, who caused sickness and disease, then who would know? And if Satan bound this woman with sickness and disease for eighteen years, who do you think, is binding people today, with sickness and disease for years?
    What about Abraham? God made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants and this woman was a descendant of Abraham. And under that covenant, God promised to heal Abraham and his descendants. Now, why was this woman sick for eighteen years? This woman was unaware of her covenant, until Jesus came along, and told her, what belonged to her from birth! How many christians today, are unaware of what's in the New Covenant? You cannot benefit or participate, in what you don't know about, even though, it may be yours from birth.

    Malachi 3:6(NIV) - I the Lord, do not change.

    If God does not change, that means whatever he did for other people in the past, he has to do for the people in the present and forever. So, if God healed people in the past, he has to heal the people today and forever. And if God cannot do, in our time, what he did for others in the past, then he will be God, that changes and not God, who never changes.

    Hebrews 13:8(NIV) - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

    If Jesus Christ is really the same yesterday, today and forever, then he must do, in our time, what he did in the past. So, if Jesus healed, the people in the past, he has to heal the people, in out time and forever. And if Jesus, cannot do, in our time, what he did in the past, then he isn't the same yesterday, today and forever.

    Hebrews 8:6(NKJV) - ....He(Jesus) is also mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

    According to the Bible, the New Covenant is far better than the Old Covenant. So, if people under the Old Covenant, which was inferior to the New Covenant, were healed, why wouldn't people under the New Covenant, which is superior, be healed? How can the New Covenant be better than the Old Covenant, if people cannot be healed?

    'healing is unbiblical?'

    Exodus 23:25-26, Psalm 103:3-4, Psalm 103:5, Psalm 107:20, Proverbs 4:20-22, Isaiah 40:29, Isaiah 40:31, Jeremiah 30:17, Malachi 4:2, Matthew 8:17, 1 Peter 2:24, Matthew 4:23, Matthew 4:24, Matthew 8:8-13, Matthew 8:16, Matthew 9:22, Matthew 9:29-30, Matthew 9:35, Matthew 12:22, Matthew 14:14, Matthew 15:30, Luke 5:15, Acts 10:38, Luke 13:16, Luke 9:6, Acts 5:12, Acts 14:8, Acts 28:8-9, James 5:14-15

    The list of scriptures above, prove beyond any reasonable doubt, that physical healing in the here and now is biblical. All these scriptures, talk about physical healing on earth and not in heaven.

    'healing of souls?'

    None of the preceding scriptures, are about the healing of souls. Everyone of them is about physical healing, right here on earth. I am not aware, of any scriptures, that talk about the healing of souls, and if anyone has knowledge of them, please feel free to present them.

    'John 16:33(AMP) - In the world, you have tribulation, trials, distress and frustration; but be of good cheer. For I(Jesus) have overcome the world. I have deprived it of power to harm you and have conquered it for you.'

    Jesus describe, what we will encounter in the world, but he did not say, we have to accept it or live with it forever. If Jesus overcame the world, did he overcome it, for himself or us? And when Jesus overcame the world, did he also overcome the negative things in it such as sickness and disease? And if sickness and disease, should continue to harm us, did Jesus really deprive the world of power to harm us? Did Jesus really conquer the world and the sickness in it for us? What good is it for us, if we can't get healed, after all the trouble Jesus went through for us? Of what use is Jesus to us, if we can't even get healed?

    'physical prosperity not for this life?'

    Genesis 1:28, Genesis 9:1, Genesis 12:2, Genesis 13:2, Genesis 39:2, Genesis 26:12-13, 2 Chronicles 1:12, 2 Kings 18:7, Psalm 35:27, Psalm 23:1, Psalm 92:12-15, Job 36:11, Psalm 1:1-3, Proverbs 11:25, Isaiah 1:19, Deuteronomy 8:18, Deuteronomy 29:9, Psalm 34:10, Isaiah 48:17, Deuteronomy 6: 18, Nehemiah 9:21, Joshua 1:8, Psalm 128:1-2, Proverbs 13:22, Haggai 2:8, Proverbs 3:9-10, Malachi 3:10-11, Proverbs 12:2, 2 Corinthians 9:8, 1 Samuel 2:8, Isaiah 45:2-3, Psalm 107:35, Proverbs 10:22, Luke 6:38, Philippians 4:19, Galatians 3:29, Matthew 6:33, 3 John 2

    The scriptures above are irrefutable evidence or proof, that physical or material prosperity is for this life, on earth. Everyone of those scriptures, is about prosperity on earth and not in heaven.

    'Jesus was poor?'

    Matthew 2:11(AMP) - Then opening their treasure bags, they(the wisemen) presented to him(Jesus) gifts - gold, frankincense and myrrh.

    When Jesus was a child, he was given treasure of very high value by the wisemen. And this treasure was carried in more than one bag. What did Jesus and his family do with this wealth? How did this treasure impact their lives? Did they convert it into money or did they invest it? Could Jesus have been poor after receiving all this wealth? (more on Jesus & prosperity in later posts)

    'Paul was never healed?'

    2 Corinthians 12:9(NKJV) - And He(God) said to me(Paul), my grace is sufficient for you...........

    What was the grace of God? The authority to use the name of Jesus! When Paul pleaded with God for healing, God told Paul, to use the name of or pray in the name of Jesus for his healing.

    'God is glorified by sickness?'

    Matthew 15:31(NKJV) - So, the multitude marveled, when they saw the mute speaking, the maimed made whole, the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.

    Did the people glorifiy God, while they were sick or after they got healed? Did the people glorify God for both, sickness and healing? And did God make the people sick, so he could be glorified by healing them? If the people in the past, did not glorify God by being sick, how can anyone, in our time, glorify God by being sick? How can God, be glorified, with what comes from the Devil, according to Jesus, Peter, Job and Paul? Does God work together with the Devil?

    'known God better through suffering?'

    Why would God want anyone to know him better through what doesn't belong to him? And why would God require some, but not others to know him through suffering?

    'sickness is a gift from God?'

    How can sickness be a gift from God, when Jesus, Peter, Job and Paul all said, it is from the Devil or Satan? And how can God give out the devil's stuff? Is God friends with the Devil?


    Att: Victoria


    'it may not come in this lifetime?'

    Many people in the Bible, as well as, in our lifetime, have received healing. Why should your healing wait for the hereafter? Why are you voluntarily disqualifying yourself? If others can get their healing in this lifetime, why not you? Where is it written, that you will get yours in heaven and not on earth?


    Att: Merry

    Anyone can call anything or anyone, what they like. But why should anyone take you seriously, if you do so without explanation or presenting contrary facts or information? How can you honestly discredit anyone or anything, without any supporting information? Can you go to court and call someone a liar or criminal, without presenting any credible evidence or proof to back up your claim?


    Att: Wayne

    'guaranteed to alienate............including christians......?'

    I find it very hard to imagine, that any sincere christian will be alienated or offended by an open and honest discussion of the Bible?


    Att: Heapsreal

    'healing may not take place in this life time?'

    Why should others get their healing in this lifetime, but not you? Why would God discriminate against you? Is there a scripture, that says, you have to wait, until you get to heaven?
     
  11. Chakra5

    Chakra5

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    With all due respect friend, and at the risk of over-stepping my limited status here...

    Please consider how controlling your last statement to be. Polite as it is, which is indeed appreciated as far as that goes, you are attempting to set a requirement to discussion that no one can communicate here without basing it on a passage from the bible.

    Clearly folk's spiritual and/or religious beliefs hold a very important place in facing and addressing some of the truly trying obstacles we all face here. And with that in mind, holding a place for folks to explore that and support each other in that way is very important, and indeed correct.

    But, for my part, I feel that you abuse that opening here to be frank.

    At the risk of being too forward, for which I apologize in advance, here's a question for you. Do you suffer with any of these illnesses? What is your connection to Chronic Fatigue? Or are you here to bring your world view to those you believe need to change their thinking to yours? Because, to be entirely direct, your posts appear to be calculated in an evangelical manor.

    If others choose to take your lead and find comfort in it, then of course who am I to complain, and I will say no more. But it does appear that is not the takeaway from others so far at least and you might wish to consider that as well.
     
  12. Nielk

    Nielk

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    I think the best reply is: no reply at all.
    I don't think that we should be discussing scripture on this forum.
    You are assuming that we are all of the same faith and believers.
    We have people here of different faiths or people who don't believe in God.
    You can't just spew your strong beliefs without insulting group of people.

    Nielk
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

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    Ditto

    (Thankyou Nielk)
     
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Senior Member

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    I don't see any way these topics cannot be controversial. I see no solution. But I will add something. I know a woman who was healed of breast cancer. Later she got CFS, and was not healed. She was lucky enough to experience a miracle the first time, but there are no guarantees.
     
  15. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    There is nothing wrong with a discussion of Faith in this part of the forum, as long as members are civil and follow the forum rules. This is a section of the forum intended for discussion of how spirituality helps one cope with CFS. But I agree with Neil that strong statements can be insulting. Let's try to be respectful of the diversity here please!
     
  16. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    This is what I have also experienced with 'Faith healing', and various forms of 'energy work' etc. It seems to work well for many illnesses besides CFS. Only a few lucky CFS sufferers seem to have been able to experience miraculous recovery. But there are people with many other diseases who have NOT been healed after extensive exercise of spiritual healing modalities. I think there is often more to the equation when using Faith based techniques than just asking for a miracle.

    Think of how you use 'faith' in a non-religious context. If you are a rock climber, having faith in your harness and rope means you are willing to start climbing with it, you will use the equipment you have to scale the rock wall. Faith without works, without that effort is, well, as Paul would say, dead. For me, taking a B12 therapy that I am using right now is an act of faith, I learn the therapy (*which took a lot of study), act on what I learn, try things out, use that rope and harness. So I see Faith as a principle of action, and of course always invite God/Source along to guide and help out... Of course, if God wanted to heal me in a miracle I would not object, (there are many requests pending :) ) but until that happens, it is hand over hand up that rock wall.
     
  17. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Kurt,

    Agree totally with your perspectives. Sums up nicely an age-old proverb, "God (or Life or the Universe, etc.) helps those who help themselves. Lot of truth in that.

    Best, Wayne
     
  18. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Despite it all -in pain and all the rest - joy - which the healthy cannot often see in the simple things around - we can.
     
  19. Live And Let Die

    Live And Let Die Senior Member

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    I was born into a Christian family. I grew up learning the Bible through intense study. I'm talking, looking up Hebrew and Greek words study to find the true message, study. Because of this study I was extremely critical of others. This is not the Bibles fault, it was MY fault. Throughout my life I have had countless discussions on the Bible with those that were beyond me in age and position at their differing churches.

    Now, as for the original poster, one of two things is going on.

    A. This is a sincere person who is acting on the fact that Christians are told to preach to the sick and the poor (also reference the Marriage Feast Parable that Jesus spoke of).
    B. This person is looking for a fight.

    I have in my life, thought I was doing A but in reality, was a big ol fat B.

    I do not know the motives behind the post, therefore I will not speculate and until I see blatant evidence, I will say this person is trying to act upon his/her faith.


    Now, I do not have the energy at the moment to fully engage in a Biblical debate. They are very intense, drawn out, and rarely change the other person. In the end, it almost ALWAYS comes down to someone using a higher form of logic, and the other resorting to character assassination.


    I want to share some of my beliefs here simply because myself and others are very sick and the last thing they need is someone barging in with a slew of verses and stating their opinions as fact.


    First off, healing in the Old Testament, is different than the New Testament and is different than NOW. All because of different covenants. God doesn't change, peoples perception of Him does.

    God has the ability to do whatever He wants with His creation. If you want to put it in perspective, go read Job. He is the Potter, we are the clay. What is the clay to the potter?
    Jesus says with faith the size of a mustard seed you can move a mountain. This is the problem with human beings, we don't have that kind of faith.
    The Bible clearly states that God's ways are not man's ways. There may be reasons we do not understand.
    God does NOT, and I repeat, does NOT use a cause and effect relationship between righteousness/reward sin/trials

    Also, I very very much agree with Kurt, you have to help yourself. Look, if you lose your job you lose your job, and if you are not out there (healthy people) actively looking for a job constantly, do not sit around and tell people that it must not be God's will that you find a job and that it is a trial for you. This mentality is wrong. Also, things that are self inflicted are not a trial from God. Case in point would be me, I have smoked cigarettes for about 10 years. At any point in my life, I develop lung cancer, the suffering will NOT be a trail from God, it will be from my own actions.

    I believe Jesus died for my sins and through the Bible there is a plan of salvation. This is what I believe. I have been very critical of others in my past and it has taken me being this sick for this long to change my perspective. Being sick like this will put your priorities straight real quick. The kind of character that is derived is one that is pleasing to God. Look at the Psalms, look at the Beatitudes, and finally look at the fruits of the spirit.

    I'm not going to quote verses, I'd rather those that are interested pick up a Bible and read it. I will be honest, my faith has been tested drastically by this illness and it still waxes and wanes on a daily basis.

    As for the original poster. If you are sincere, and you are truely trying to bring people to an understand of God, try a different approach. The Scribes and Pharisees were very critical, very legalistic and did everything by the Old Testament. They DID everything right, in the wrong way. They were self righteous and through their pride completely missed the point of the ministry Jesus preached.

    Ok, I'm done.
     

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