What is actually meant by the term "Detox" on PR?

[Gingergrrl]

I have been wondering for a long time when people on PR use the term "detox" what they actually mean? I read it in so many different threads with different contexts that I realized that I don't quite get it?!!

I have seen it in regard to Lyme treatment, methylation supplements, chelation & mercury, but not sure of the common link? I have also seen threads where people have written that unless someone is doing "Detox protocol" that they will not get better and also wondered what this refers to?

I feel like there might be an element of treatment that I am missing by not understanding or doing this (unless I am doing it without knowing it?)

Thanks in advance and no info is too basic.

 

[Undisclosed]

I think everybody has their own definition.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I think everybody has their own definition.

@Kina I totally agree about all the different definitions but still trying to understand at the most basic level what it means? I understand in the context of detoxing from drugs or alcohol but what are people detoxing from in this context? If I am taking an anti-viral med, is there supposed to be an additional detox product to rid your body of the virus or am I misunderstanding?

 

[halcyon]

Unless someone is talking about it in the context of the function of the liver (or I guess drugs/alcohol as you mentioned) then they're likely referring to the alternative medicine practice of detoxification. As there isn't always a sound medical basis for these practices, it's kind of up to you to decide what seems worth doing. I'd suggest reading any criticisms for these practices before giving them a try.

 

[Sushi]

I have been wondering for a long time when people on PR use the term "detox" what they actually mean?

I've inserted some quotes from Rich where he refers to genetic defects in the detoxification system (liver). If we have some of these SNPs we will not be able to move toxins from the body efficiently. Since most drugs are processed by the liver, some of us may need extra help moving these by-products out of the body.

In cases of people whose onset involved toxins, I suggest that there may be inherited genetic deficiencies in the detoxication system. These could include polymorphisms in the cytochrome P450 enzymes, or in the glutathione transferase enzymes, for examples.
These show up fairly frequently in the Genovations Detoxigenomic Profiles that I have received from PWMEs.

What I’m suggesting now is that a factor that allows these infections or toxins to remain, and not be eliminated by the restored immune system or the detoxication system, respectively, is that the genetic deficiencies in these systems that facilitated the onset of ME/CFS in these people are of course still present, and they are preventing full recovery by continuing to interfere with the operation of the immune system or the detoxication system.

If this is true, then it makes sense that the immune system and/or the detoxication system will need additional help to eliminate these infections or toxins.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@halcyon and @Sushi Thank you and that was really helpful. Thank you for the quotes from Rich as well. It sounds like detox (in this context) refers to treatments that help the liver remove toxins that we are not able to do on our own due to infection or ME/CFS?

Do most people on PR do some kind of detox protocol and if so what is it? Was it recommended by a naturopath or alternative medicine doctor?

 

[Sushi]

Do most people on PR do some kind of detox protocol and if so what is it? Was it recommended by a naturopath or alternative medicine doctor?

Many do some kind of detox protocol. Sometimes these are recommended by naturopaths and sometimes by MDs. My doctor has prescribed some herbal tinctures to help me "handle" some of the drugs I am taking.

When infected cells are killed the cell walls can give off toxic substances. Some medical practitioners believe that it is helpful to have a protocol to help "move these toxins along."

Some of us have also had our liver detox pathways tested--Genovations Detoxigenomic Profiles. This can give information about what medications we might personally have trouble with.

Sushi

 

[Kati]

Look, detox is controversial in regular medicine. Our body does a very good job of cleaning itself out. There are lots of beliefs out there that our liver is 'dirty' and that our intestines need to be cleansed inside and out, litterally. This is witchcraft.

i just thought I'd give my opinion.

i've been on this forum for quite a few years and those who have tried the alternative therapies, and there are many, including detox, they are still here and still sick. The progress they think they are making is countered by crashes later on.

Recently on FB few people mentioned that their gluten free diets was not working., they didn't feel any benefits. (And other kind of diet). it's time that people wake up and stop believing the unbelievable amount of unsubstanciated theories out there.

Sorry if my rant sounds harsh, and some will be offended because they have been 'believing' for so long.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Kati Your opinion does not sound harsh to me and I really wanted a variety of feedback to get an understanding of what people meant by the term "detox." I don't understand though what following a gluten free diet has to do with it? Is that a form of detox? I do it b/c it was recommended by my endocrinologist to help lessen the damage of Hashimoto's Disease in the long-term. I eliminated certain foods per my former ND that were causing high inflammation on a food sensitivity test. This all helped with severe GI problems that I was having at that time. Are dietary changes considered "detox?"

 

[SickOfSickness]

Mostly I mean detoxifying the body in any way, ridding of toxins. Some detox practices are FIR saunas, a few days on a juice diet, getting mercury fillings removed, taking those liver cleanse and intestinal cleanse and other detoxification supplements like chlorella, coffee enemas, etc. I would include reducing exposure to anything bad but some might not include that in the definition.

Sometimes I mean the liver getting rid of toxins or detox pathways (genes that relate to liver function).

 

[Kati]

i think that people think there is a way out with what they eat and that the miracle supplement is out there, and by using the right cocktail they will be miraculously healed.

Detox is a belief. It is not a verb. The liver is doing it's job by itself. It doesn't need to be helped. The amalgam thing is totally alternative belief. "Foods that heal" is absolutely ludicrous in my eye. By all mean, eat well. Fruits and veggies everyday. Milk and dairy, grains have a role in healthy diet, if you can tolerate it. But I have heard so many patients being told no milk, no grain by an alternative practitioner, and I have heard from people who have followed these guidelines very strictly, and it hasn't helped them. I don't believe that a certain way of eating contributed in any way to our illness nor do I believe that changing diet and detoxing is going to cure anybody. There was a CBC (Canadian boradcasting) Tv show that actually addressed the detox regimen topic. Does it 'work'? No. There is no proof whatsoever that detoxing is doing anything at all if robbing your wallet because usually you have to purchase products to help you detox. Placebo anyone? People feel better because they are doing something that is supposed to work, so they feel it works for them. And they get surprised when they relapse again.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

I agree with Kati. Detox has no physiological or scientific biological meaning. It is a 'sort of scientific' idea that does not actually mean anything specific. There are very real examples of detoxifying - like using activated charcoal to remove paracetamol following overdose, or good old renal dialysis, but I doubt that any of the 'detox protocols' recommended for general health purposes are based on anything real. Getting rid of a virus would not be detox because 'toxin' refers to molecules rather than organisms.

I don't think your missing anything Gingergrrl.

 

[lansbergen]

The liver is doing it's job by itself. It doesn't need to be helped.

And what it cannot handle can be dumped through the skin, lungs and intestines. I remember in the old days in veterinary medicine it was said a bout of diaree was a sign rubbish was dumped.

I do no take supplements and eat what I like. At the moment I love roasted porkbelly and lard. I enjoy lard and sugar on a slice of bread.

 

[adreno]

I guess there is the "alternative" version (fasting, juicing, enema), and the scientific version of detoxification. The scientific one is that the liver carries out detoxification in two phases, detoxing chemicals and xenobiotics through various mechanisms:

Abstract
The liver plays an important rôle in protecting the organism from potentially toxic chemical insults through its capacity to convert lipophiles into more water-soluble metabolites which can be efficiently eliminated from the body via the urine. This protective ability of the liver stems from the expression of a wide variety of xenobiotic biotransforming enzymes whose common underlying feature is their ability to catalyse the oxidation, reduction and hydrolysis (Phase I) and/or conjugation (Phase II) of functional groups on drug and chemical molecules. The broad substrate specificity, isoenzyme multiplicity and inducibility of many of these enzyme systems make them particularly well adapted to handling the vast array of different chemical structures in the environment to which we are exposed daily. However, some chemicals may also be converted to more toxic metabolites by certain of these enzymes, implying that variations in the latter may be important predisposing factors for toxicity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1749210

Various substances, including foods, drugs and supplements, can either enhance or inhibit specific detoxification pathways. Genes also affect this.

One example of this is sulforaphane from broccoli, which stimulates Phase II detoxification:

Broccoli sprouts help the body expel air pollutants such as benzene, say scientists

I believe healthy detoxification is important, not only for the metabolism of drugs, but also xenobiotics like pesticides, phthalates, hormone disruptors, diesel exhaust, cleaning agents, cosmetics and numerous other chemicals we are exposed to daily.

 

[Mij]

i think that people think there is a way out with what they eat and that the miracle supplement is out there, and by using the right cocktail they will be miraculously healed.

Detox is a belief. It is not a verb. The liver is doing it's job by itself. It doesn't need to be helped. The amalgam thing is totally alternative belief. "Foods that heal" is absolutely ludicrous in my eye. By all mean, eat well. Fruits and veggies everyday. Milk and dairy, grains have a role in healthy diet, if you can tolerate it. But I have heard so many patients being told no milk, no grain by an alternative practitioner, and I have heard from people who have followed these guidelines very strictly, and it hasn't helped them. I don't believe that a certain way of eating contributed in any way to our illness nor do I believe that changing diet and detoxing is going to cure anybody. There was a CBC (Canadian boradcasting) Tv show that actually addressed the detox regimen topic. Does it 'work'? No. There is no proof whatsoever that detoxing is doing anything at all if robbing your wallet because usually you have to purchase products to help you detox. Placebo anyone? People feel better because they are doing something that is supposed to work, so they feel it works for them. And they get surprised when they relapse again.

Wasn't that the CBC show where they tried to contact Dr.OZ about his "detox diets" and he was no where to be found? Yeah, I saw that show

 

[ahmo]

It's become quite evident to me that my system does not efficiently remove toxins, including the oxidative byproducts of a stressful day. Initially detox for me meant a process of ridding my body of toxic metals and bacteria. Once these initial burdens were greatly reduced, I found that my body requires regular maintenance, assistance with detoxification. I now use coffee enemas at least tqice a week to assist my liver, and hence adrenals and the rest of my body. I would be bedbound with fatigue and overwhelmed with brain fog if I did nothing, to say nothing of feeling absolutely miserable.

 

[Valentijn]

In the context of Lyme disease, "detox" would refer to a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction. When Lyme or Syphilis spirochetes die off by any method, they release endotoxins. Then there's a rise in inflammatory cytokines, which results in very specific symptoms.

"Herxing" is another term which gets badly abused. Currently even the wikipedia article is attributing the reaction to non-spirochetes, even though at least some the cited articles clearly say it's a Herxheimer-like reaction, not an actual Herxheimer reaction.

 

[Gingergrrl]

"Foods that heal" is absolutely ludicrous in my eye. By all mean, eat well. Fruits and veggies everyday. Milk and dairy, grains have a role in healthy diet, if you can tolerate it. But I have heard so many patients being told no milk, no grain by an alternative practitioner, and I have heard from people who have followed these guidelines very strictly, and it hasn't helped them. I don't believe that a certain way of eating contributed in any way to our illness nor do I believe that changing diet and detoxing is going to cure anybody.

@Kati I am confused about this part as my former ND had recommended a food plan for me based on the items that I tested as extremely high inflammation on a food sensitivity test by US Biotek Labs (which is supposed to be a very reputable test.) She never used the word detox but my understanding was that 80% of our immunity is in the gut (I think why Dr. Lipkin wants to do the microbiome study?) so if we can reduce inflammation in the gut, it can improve our immunity.

Before I started her food plan, back in June, I had nausea all day long and diarrhea 5-6x a day where I was afraid to leave the house or be away from a bathroom. The food plan along with probiotics and digestive enzymes were nothing short of miraculous for me and now I am able to add most of the foods back in (in moderation) except gluten which I eliminated b/c of Hashimotos. For me, doing things to help my GI system have also allowed me to tolerate meds and supplements that I could not tolerate before.

I guess I am confused what following a food plan has to do with detox? I am glad I started this thread and was really in the dark on this topic (and never meant that anything food related was a "cure"- just something to improve symptoms.) Also, Dr. Wahls book is based around foods that you can eat to help improve symptoms. I know it is for MS and not ME but I think it has some good ideas in it.

 

[Gingergrrl]

In the context of Lyme disease, "detox" would refer to a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction. When Lyme or Syphilis spirochetes die off by any method, they release endotoxins. Then there's a rise in inflammatory cytokines, which results in very specific symptoms.

@Valentijn I had seen the word "detox" used a lot in the Lyme context and I guess that is why I wondered if it applied to non-Lyme issues as well. I was trying to clarify what it meant when different people were using the word and didn't even realize (prior to this thread) that juice fasting was considered a detox?

 

[helen1]

Not just Lyme disease, but others cause Herxing also. I'm familiar with chlamydia pneumonia. When treated it releases endotoxins so debilitating to patients that treatment has to be very cautious.