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What has helped more with your sleep?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Beyond, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Men produce a certain amount of progesterone and in both sexes helps balance estrogen.

    Progesterone has activity on gaba receptors, supposedly improves gaba sensitivity. My experience was with a progesterone cream from iherb and was experimenting with it to help sleep. Testing has shown my progesterone is below normal, this can also be a sign of low cortisol too as hormones tend to flow from progesterone to cortisol. The first night i used it, it floored me and sleeped well and woke with a hangover, felt really drugged. I think it worked for a couple of nights then stopped working. I have tried it intermittently and havent been able to repeat the effects.

    As a treatment for sleep in guys, i havent read about too many successful stories, but im sure its helped some guys.
     
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I take your points, but addiction doesn't only arise from seeking a high. Benzodiazepines are some of the most addictive substances, but they are commonly prescribed for anxiety - to calm people down. Opiates/opioids are commonly prescribed for pain. But people can end up seriously addicted to them, ditto other things that aren't taken for a 'high'.

    Like most things, it's complex. This page has some definitions.
     
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  3. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    I find Clonidine to be really good for sleep. Shuts down that hyper-active SNS within an hour. My heart stops pounding and I am instantly relaxed.

    EDIT: Post now reflects that this is just my personal experience with clonidine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Clonidine would be a pretty horrible thing for most ME patients to try. It's an agonist of ADRA2A, which is already overexpressed in ME patients and certainly doesn't need to be made worse! It also causes hypotension, which the majority of us already seem to have enough of without any help.
     
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  5. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    Darn that is bad news. My BP is always all over the place. From taking Florinef to clonidine, and now I think I'm set to switch to midodrine soon. For sure I will phrase things so they don't sound like recommendations.

    I guess what I meant to say is clonidine helps me sleep, but everyone's YMMV and thank you to Valentijn for pointing out that contraindication.
     
  6. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    I can now report that Sleep Restriction Therapy does nothing for this kind of insomnia.
     
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  7. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    I know someone with this insomnia who cured it with a enema every night before bed.

    This young man has Smith-Magenis Syndrome, which makes him too sensitive to glutamates, even his own. The insomnia theory is that overall his cells don't expell waste very well (Methylation problems) and that at night there are too many things left in the bowel (minerals, excitatory molecules) that somehow excite his brain, making him wake up.

    Wasn't there something about the lower bowel being able to communicate directly with the upper nerve system including the brain? (sorry, don't remember, just woke up, tired)

    With the enema they rid his bowel of things that could fester there. The change was overnight and occurs every night. After years of daily insomnia.

    During the day he still get unexpected bouts of aggression and hyper-ness. They are now looking into his diet and into the calcium-magnesium ratio.

    Could glutamates be the things that bother us too? Even from unexpected sources like the bowel?

    SKIP THIS:
    Smith-Magenis: a DNA mutation frustrating the Magnesium-Calcium ion channel on the glutamate receptor in the brain making it too slow to close. The gen is GRIN2B and the receptor is NMDA = N-methyl-D-aspartate. This is the receptor for the most excitatory neurotransmitter we have: glutamate.
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  8. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Sorry the sleep restriction didn't help. Don't want to say I told you so, but...

    Yes, the gut has its own nervous system and immune system and they send and receive signals to and from the brain and the rest of the immune system.

    Diet is a/the main determinant of the gut microbiota, which in turn affect the gut wall including immune cells. This at least partly explains why healing the gut through diet and supplements improves sleep, mood and a lot else for many of us. I'd rather put good nutrients in at the top end than flush everything out of the bottom end! :D
     
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    The 40-ish ME patients I have data for have a lot of rare mutations on various glutamate receptors. For example out of 32 patients I have on a spreadsheet, 6 are homozygous for rs11610517 on GRIN2B, compared with 0 somewhat matched controls. That's also at least twice the rate for that allele compared to what would expected from an almost entirely European group in general, and the allele is much rarer in other ethnic groups.
     
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  10. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    You told me so? Hahaha, I love you for that.

    This way I have reliable data to approach the Sleep Psychologist. Tickle him to start thinking outside the box.
    Today I purchased an enema set and do trial and error. Just in time to show him if there are any results.

    And you people, who do not have the robustness to try Sleep Restriction, can now rebuff people suggesting it to you. All it did was make me tired which I countered with higher hydrocortisone and an extra meal a day. i gained weight. Not good.

    I'm also trying to install basic safety, since I lack that. Through hypnotherapy. The other day I had one hypnotherapist suggest I should relax when lying awake. "try counting back from a hundred"
    I could have strangled her. Such short sightedness. "why, relaxation? I never thought of that!"

    Another started about segmented sleep and slow releasing carbyhydrates. Yeah, been there, done that, it's not segmented sleep, my body is exhausted, it's just my head that's in a party mood. And I checked blood glucose years ago, it's not an issue.

    I like Valentijn's data. Glutamate receptors and enema's are the next thing I'll investigate. edit: I have doubts about enema's. They mess with the electrolytes in the body. And a really cleaning enema cleans out your bacteria flora in the colon. The ones that make vit. K I think. Proceed with caution.

    Also, I exhibit lots of traits of someone with Asperger's. I'm getting diagnosed, in a centre specializing in women. (in Utrecht, Valentijn. "Annelies Spek").
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014
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  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I hope my friendly jibe didn't come across as insensitive. It wasn't meant to. It sounds like a nasty experience. But I have read a fair amount on studies in people with ME trying sleep restriction/hygiene and the results have not been good, so I like to warn people to save them from having a bad experience, wasting energy, etc.

    Lack of sleep can indeed increase weight. There is scientific evidence for this too. I guessed that it be partly due to increased appetite, as I am hungrier when I don't sleep enough, but I think there are other mechanisms behind the link too - there may be posts in PR referring to this.

    I am borderline Asperger's too according to online questionnaires. Have you tried any of these?
     
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  12. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    enema's: they affect the electrolytes in the body. Most people with ME and everyone with adrenal issues needs to be cautious. Taking a saline enema is one solution.

    Secondly: an enema flushes out most of your bacterial flora. The very one that busy themselves with vit. K and B and a lot more. This may not be such a good idea since humans exist symbiotically with this bunch. :alien::alien::sluggish::hug:

    I took an enema last night and I regret it. :(
    Firstly, it was quite tiring on my body, I had to lie down for a long time afterwards. As I am in better condition than most people here I fear it's too much of an assault on serious ill people.

    During the night I typically woke up after 4 hours of sleep and could not go back to sleep, my mind was racing. Much harder than on other nights. Much longer too. I lied awake from half past 2 till 6.
    Today I feel awful. Brain chemistry's all messed up. It could be die-off or toxins not getting properly discarded. But more likely it's the void of proper colon flora.

    I think I may have flushed some friendly allies through the toilet...
     
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  13. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    For the record, Lecithin increases acetylcholine, i.e. really gives you enhanced dreaming. It might be of utility for some, especially those that feel not dreaming might be part of the problem. Personally I take it and am not sure if it helps or not sleep as I feel I have too much REM already but is good for the brain anyway.

    Going to test NINE more supplements beside lecithin in a week or so (including the famous Enzymatic Therapy Methylcobalamin! Hope I wont overmethylate to death :rofl:). I have even more in mind but money always puts a limit. If that fails I will ask the psychiatrist for Baclofen and such.

    I´ve been having a very bad batch of unrefreshing sleep lately, which comes after a good batch in which I insisted in working out as I was feeling (and looking) so much better. Maybe I am paying it, who knows. But it is very boring to not do sport when your body starts to feel alive again for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
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  14. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    @WoolPippi
    I have to agree about enemas, I keep trying them on the advice of nutritionists etc. but they just seem to make me feel so much worse for a few days. I know detoxing is a big issue for me so I'm now going to go down the infra red sauna route, here's hoping it helps.....
     
    Beyond likes this.
  15. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Enemas are very harsh! I did a lot of them and they were extremely effective at the beginning (coffee enemas), but nowadays given my experience I will say they are just good for a couple of times a year or when you are in dire need of detoxing. The sauna on the other hand is something you can do everyday and is very healthy.
     
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I think I have more than enough acetylcholine, and feel better with anticholinergic drugs such as sedating antihistamines (not to be confused with (acetyl)cholinesterase inhibitors, which increase acetylcholine).

    Acetylcholine increases muscle contraction, without taking account of whether you can produce enough energy to do this aerobically, thus can be bad for us, I think. We can end up with muscle tension and fatigue from too much unsustainable contraction. That's why anticholinergics can relieve spasms by reducing muscle contraction.

    There's some info about acetylcholine here.
     
  17. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    To get deep sleep, I sometimes take the supplement NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine), but not every day. It helps with the methylation problem, but then using it daily will result in a backlash, so infrequent use I find is best.

    To increase dreaming, Aricept and the like, will do that as such drugs increase acetylcholine.
     
  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I dream plenty!
     
  19. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    NAC never did anything for me, but is well established that it is a basic beneficial supplement.

    @MeSci But lecithin is more food than a supplement, even RickVank had it as part of his protocol, so probably is not harmful even for people with too much acetylcholine. Also has inositol and PS-serine, I wouldn´t be surprised to see it lowers cortisol.

    I am thinking of stuffing myself with grams of Tryptophan,Glycine, Taurine, GABA and Inositol. Didnt buy GABA and Inositol though, darn! Instead I got suntheanine, zinc monomethionine and magnesium glycinate.
     
  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    You're going to have trouble working out what is doing what with all that lot!

    Do you have high cortisol? A lot of us seem to have low cortisol, hence too much inflammation and immune activity. Some research has also found that we have abnormal diurnal cortisol secretion patterns, so that it's higher when it should be lower and vice versa.
     

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