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What has helped more with your sleep?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Beyond, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I agree very much with this. I am finding it easier to relax now, but am not sure whether this is due to the adrenaline-reducing effects of my low-carb diet and supplements, the fact that my financial situation is at last more secure, and/or mellowing with age! It's very hard not to worry or be tense, etc., when you cannot pay your bills, keep warm, etc.

    So as I am often in the habit of saying, an injection of money would probably help a lot of us to feel better and improve our health!
     
    Beyond likes this.
  2. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Well one day that I had a especially good time with my family (and with myself!) I slept especially good. Definetely feeling less stressed and more content plays a role in sleep quality.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  3. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    I do the Dr. Cheney mix, although I'm sure he's refined his protocol. I do a little Clonazepam .5mg, a little Doxepin,25 mg or 50 on bad nights, 3mg Melatonin--Natures way, I think-- the bottle is over there and I'm over here and not about to get up--and slowly increasing amounts of Ambien. B-12 injections help, too. Cheney is, at least was. of the belief that the mix had a much better effect. I guess there's some synergy going on. The sleep issue is a big one, what with your liver and god knows what else only get busy when you are sleeping. I don't seem to get the easy access to Cheney's thoughts now that Carol is no longer posting them on the Dallas/Ft. Worth support site. I really need to catch up on our expert clinicians on what they are doing for these types of issues. So, I'm glad you all are here and I finally found you.
     
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  4. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    I've not much more brain to shrink. I think I'm coasting on my lizard brain and muscle memory.
     
  5. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    That isn´t that bad Izola... Some people believe that this is what happens in that scenario...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  6. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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  7. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    Oops. You made me laugh. Now, how am I going to find my clean sox? : ) Thanks, Beyond, Iz
     
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  8. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Its common knowledge that i rotate the heck out of a handful of different meds for sleep, which has helped me to keep my doses low and avoid tolerance, to a certain degree.

    Generally i sleep well with a benzo but what happens is i will run into a period of crappy sleep for a couple of days which i think is probably due to tolerance. After crap sleep my little brain hurts, now what i find helps and feels like its resetting(reducing inflammation?) my brain is a good nights sleep with seroquel, mostly use 50mg which is a low dose, well below what its indicated for. Now this really helps reduce that inflammed brain feeling, i wake up alittle hungover but im ok with that and it wears off after a couple of hours but what i dont like is i wake up and im really stiff and sore, the same thing happens with trazadone and doxepine, although they arent as good for sleep as seroquel.

    Does anyone else find the same thing?
    When reading up on say fibro one theory is that poor sleep increases pain which i agree with, but seroquel/traz definately improve sleep and brain inflammation feels better but the rest of my body feels like it was used as a punching bag. So not sure whats going on but maybe these meds even in low doses lower dopamine too much for me?? Even though in low doses its not suppose to effect dopamine much and they say there sedating effects are due to there antihistamine effects. Antihistamines dont do this to me though??
     
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  9. TPOBPAH

    TPOBPAH

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    Brandon, MB Canada
    As a few have said there are many things that can cause sleeping problems. The most recent research suggest that there is likely something going on with certain genes being activated or deactivated that in turn permanently changes how are sleep/wake cycles react. This most likely occurs after a long period of stress where the fight or flight response has been elevated for too long.
     
    maryb likes this.
  10. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    Netherlands
    I can report what didn't help: earthing.

    I grounded my body with copper wire to the Earth's potential (via the radiator which is grounded in my house). It felt good for a couple of hours. The idea is to even out the electrical differences in the body, caused by electro magnetic fields in the modern house.

    The nights after that I woke every hour and then lied awake from 1 to 6 in the night. Tossed the wore immideately but it kept happening. (isn't that strange? Such after effect)
    I was awake for three nights in a row.
    Now, the fourth night, I'm back to 5 hours sleep, 2 hours insomnia, thank god.

    It may provide a clue though, that small electro currents keep us awake and adding to them makes it worse. (Earthing will make small currents run through your body to the radiator. Without earthing the currents won't occur as the fields just pass through your body, doing I don't know what). I'm speculating here, I've got no clue.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  11. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Yeah earthing does not help definitely. It worked slightly for me for sleep onset insomnia for almost two months though. Maybe the famous placebo effect showing its shady face.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
  12. Digby9

    Digby9

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    lurker here. I want to add that Earthing worsened my insomnia as well. Surprised me, I really expected it to help.
     
  13. Digby9

    Digby9

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    Has anyone here heard of DSIP (Delta Sleep Inducing Peptide)? I ordered some but haven't gotten up the courage to try it yet.
     
  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    On my too do list. Interested to know how it goes. Im also interested in other peptides for growth hormone like ghrp2 and ghrp6.
     
  15. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    Maybe the ones that make you feel beaten up and stiff are the ones that put you into a deeper sleep and for longer. I'm just guessing w/ no science or medical facts to back me up. Back when I was "normal" and put in a hard day's or week's work I'd fall into bed and sleep the sleep of the dead. Sometimes I'd feel like I didn't move an inch all night. I'd wake up all stiff and sore, kind of like you described.
    Antihistamines are sedating. I think that the small doses we take for allergies & stuff we just don't feel it. But do be careful with them. Iz
     
  16. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    Sounds a lot like how our disease started up. Iz
     
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  17. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    I'll go into rehab for it after I'm dead. Iz
     
    Beyond likes this.
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    australia (brisbane)
    Im not sure but have read its common side effect of those types of meds.
     
  19. Radio

    Radio *****

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    I take my sleep aids 45 minutes before bed too...It seem to help if i don't eat anything past 6pm...
    Check out the top selling sleep aids on the market, http://www.iherb.com/search?kw=sleep aids&sug=sleep aid&x=0&y=0#p=1
     
  20. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    @Beyond.
    I've got a theory for my sleeping 5 hours and then lying wide awake for 2, being very alert. It fits all the symptoms and medical data I have.

    SHORT VERSION:
    after 5 hours I get excess noradrenaline on the brain. This prevents GABA rising and REMsleep commencing and makes one very alert.

    Oral supplementing of the neurotransmitter Progesterone makes me sleep for 7 or 8 hours straight. Maybe because one of its metabolites, Allopregnanolone, dampens neurons firing and promotes GABA. It is as potent as benzo's and sleepingpills, which is what most people use for this kind of insomnia.

    Progesterone is NOT a female sex hormone.

    LONGER VERSION:
    In the brain a small amount of noradrenaline is needed after the 4,5 hours of nonREMsleep to stop the REM-off neurons from firing and let REM-on neurons start. When REM-on neurons get active GABA will rise and REMsleep will start.
    REM sleep depends on high GABA.

    Too much noradrenaline makes this impossible. GABA will not rise and insomnia will cause more noradrenaline. Noradrenaline is the neurotransmitter that makes you very very alert.

    Reason might be MAO A not breaking down noradrenaline sufficiently due to a mutation.

    Another reason might be too low Progesterone (I have this, tested and proven). Progesterone is not a female sex hormone, it is a human hormone. Testosterone is made from it. Cortisol is made from it. And it is a neurotransmitter in the brain.

    In the brain Progesterone increases MAO's activity slightly.

    Progesterone’s most profound neuronal effect, however, results from its direct effect on the neuronal membrane. Progesterone has an inhibitory effect on neuronal excitation, depressing neuronal firing.

    One of its metabolites in the brain is Allopregnanolone. This is a neuroactive steroid that does something with GABA. It has a potency similar to that of the most potent benzodiazepines (Valium etc) and approximately a thousand times higher than pentobarbitals (sleeping pills).

    (I still need to check my sources but this one put me onto Allopregnanolone and this one researches REMsleep)

    CONTEXT:
    Noradrenaline is noradrenergic, meaning to do with the Sympathetic Nervous System.
    Onset of REMsleep and GABA is from cholinergic brain input, it is about the Parasympathetic Nervous System. (source here)
    The nervous system is not limited to the brain, of course.

    REMEDIES:
    - stop noradrenaline from rising (how? how? How do I get the Sympathetic Nervous System to shut up?)
    - stop REM-off neurons from continious firing (how? by taking benzo's? by taking Allopregnanolone?)
    - raise GABA (how? taking precursors?)

    SUPPLEMENTING:
    Taking GABA is useless, it cannot go through the blood brain barrier (BBB) because it is too big a molecule, say people on the forums here. If a GABA supplement does have a soothing effect it means your BBB is leaky (search forums on this, Hip and Gestalt say smart things about this)

    Progesterone: only take progesterone, no progestins. Be vigilant about this. Read the label.
    Take the oral pill, not the cream, someone one the forums here said the pill form is the only form that yields Allopregnonalone. As is my own experience too.

    In Europe the (only) correct brand for Progesteron is Utrogestan. It is not over the counter. Your doctor will probably resist and needs to be educated. Both on Progesterone/Progestins and on males needing this basic hormone.

    A 100 mg pill gets converted to 10mg active Progestrone (the liver filters out the rest, working hard). This 10mg is the dose a regular human body needs for a regular day, it's a physiological doses. It is what a normal body produces on its own. Supplementing the full 10mg is too much for a man who -presumably- produces at least some of his own in his adrenals. Problem.

    Females need more because they also use Progestrone to balance out Estrogens. Their physiological dose varies every day and can range from 10 to 60mg. (60mg on day 21 of cycle)

    Larger Utrogestan pills (200/500mg) are for females in pregnancy. They may need much more than the daily 60mg to keep their baby on board which is where the hormone gets its name: PRO-GESTational-hoRmONE and our association with it being a female sex hormone.

    HRT = RISKY
    There is no knowing in advance how your body choses to convert the Progesterone. It may raise your Testosterone, your Cortisol, your Aldosterone. Taking too much may numb the receptors or lower your own production.
    HRT is risky business. Always start low and go slow.

    10 mg Progesterone is excess of what a man needs, I feel. I'd want 20 or 50mg pills to start with but these are not produced. You could cut open a capsule and take only the white liquid, I guess. It looks like paint.

    One thing about taking physiological doses is that your body is able to get rid of it within the day. You are not overdosing as is often the case with conventional HRT or other drugs.
    ME/CFS people probably have decreased capacity for elimination so should even take less, of any drug or supplement. On a positive note: we notice effects sooner so small doses give us information fast.

    MY EXPERIENCE
    On some nights I take 100mg Utrogestan pills for my menstrual cycle and then I sleep through the night every time, unless it's the last week before my period. I was told sleepiness was a symptom of too high a dose. Now I am not so sure. It feels awful during the day and I avoid it. But at night I sleep well and wake up with new vigour. And now I found a plausible explanation for it.

    As long as my liver can stand it and I wake up feeling refreshed I am now taking Progesterone at night. The correct thing to do is find out with how low a dose I sleep through. But because my need as a female differs each day and I have CFS I'm not up for cutting up pills and taking notes yet.

    For you I have no quick solution, sorry. Only this theory that, to me, makes sense and fits both our symptoms.




    Sent from my iPad
     
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