What factor in red meat was responsible for my PEM relief?

[PatJ]

I find it best to think of taking a palette of various fatty acids of different lengths, as our cell membranes, etc. need them all.

Good point. I'll expand my oil variety. Thank you for the suggestion and the palette analogy.

 

[Learner1]

I am starting to think that the factor to which people react is glutathione precursors (glutamic acid + sulfur), because I love eating meat and flax made me very ill. My understanding was that flax "freezes" glutamic acid avoiding its conversion to either glutamate or glutathione. As I posted elsewhere, I felt that flaxseed oil inhibited glutathione synthesis by blocking thyroid hormone receptors, or T3 synthesis. I suppose this would hit harder those with thyroid problems like myself.

So for some people eating meat makes it easier to make glutathione, for other it becomes harder and they get increased glutamate and sulfites (ammonia?)

If the problem is ammonia, then Biotin should help with that.

Glutathione synthesis requires sufficient glycine, cysteine, and glutamine. If you have too much of one, and not enough of the others, you will be limited in the amount you make. Excess glutamine, can be used elsewhere, which can create symptoms. Many of us need glycine and NAC, n-acetyl-cysteine, to use the glutamine to make glutathione.

Glutathione must be recycled, so you need adequate vitamin C to do that. It also helps in detoxification, sending toxins through the transsulfuration pathway. If one is short of B1 and/or molybdenum, one may have a sulfur problem. B6 is needed, too.

I tend toward high sulfur. We've found I need large doses of B6, so I'm on that. When I start emitting sulfur, I up my molybdenum and B1, while taking activated charcoal away from other supplements to bind it. Curcumin helps too.

High ammonia is not the same as high sulfur. Glutathione, milk thistle, garlic, arginine, ornithine, and lysine can help diminish it.

I have thyroid problems too, but find that keeping my nutrient levels sufficient minimizes my other issues.

 

[Gondwanaland]

High ammonia is not the same as high sulfur. Glutathione, milk thistle, garlic, arginine, ornithine, and lysine can help diminish it.

Yes, I know they are separate issues. In my readings I found that Biotin and Zinc reduce ammonia as well.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I tend toward high sulfur. We've found I need large doses of B6, so I'm on that. When I start emitting sulfur, I up my molybdenum and B1, while taking activated charcoal away from other supplements to bind it. Curcumin helps too.

Me too. About 1 or 2 yrs ago I found out that eating chick peas (HIgh in B1 and Moly) eliminated my sulfur issues completely. Then I became intolerant to it. After consistently inhibiting xanthine oxidase (uric acid production), I was able totolerate chick peas again, until I took supplemental Moly and had a severe glutamate exposure and all the hell broke loose (my poor kidneys).

In your experience does taking Selenium also help to better utilize sulfur? I am trying this approach now. I stopped Selenium supplementation more than a year ago since I never felt benefits from it (I guess I had enough for my needs in my diet, and I take T3 anyway). Now I have been trying to adjust the dose, which is quite tricky.

ETA while taking carcinine my sulfur issues resolved completely (by eaating high Boron foods, dried fruit, which are high sulfite at the same time ), but then I stopped tolerating it as well.

 

[Wishful]

heapsreal, saying 'meat is a good source of carnitine' is misleading. Beef is high in carnitine. Pork has about 1/6th as much as beef. Chicken has only trivial amounts of carnitine, so eating chicken won't supply your carnitine needs. Back when meat was a problem, I could eat about 180 gms of beef without triggering symptoms. More than 30gms of pork would trigger symptoms. Even one bite of chicken would trigger symptoms. I thought it was something to do with the metabolic rates of the animals. I wanted to test that hypothesis, but sloth steaks are hard to come by here, and so are hummingbird thighs, so I didn't follow up. Then I saw the list of carnitine content of foods, with the ratio that matched my tolerances, and tested that instead, and found that it worked.

As someone else in this thread pointed out, carnitine solved the problem...for a while. Now it doesn't seem to have an effect, but what seems to have happened is that I lost (for now at least) the sensitivity to the fatty acids if they aren't accompanied by adequate carnitine.

 

[Learner1]

Me too. About 1 or 2 yrs ago I found out that eating chick peas (HIgh in B1 and Moly) eliminated my sulfur issues completely. Then I became intolerant to it. After consistently inhibiting xanthine oxidase (uric acid production), I was able totolerate chick peas again, until I took supplemental Moly and had a severe glutamate exposure and all the hell broke loose (my poor kidneys).

My family has used the Genova Diagnostics NutrEval for 9 years, and over time, we've had molybdenum deficiencies show up. I've found adding molybdenum has helped a lot to reduce sulfur, along with B1. However, as with most other supplements, there's an upper limit, beyond which unpleasant effects emerge. The key is to have an appropriate amount to get the job done at any point in time.

In your experience does taking Selenium also help to better utilize sulfur? I am trying this approach now. I stopped Selenium supplementation more than a year ago since I never felt benefits from it (I guess I had enough for my needs in my diet, and I take T3 anyway). Now I have been trying to adjust the dose, which is quite tricky.

Selenium has the same number if electrons in its outer shell as sulfur, so they can be swapped in chemical reactions. Selenium is used to make glutathione, using sulfur.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14562341/

http://www.immunehealthscience.com/benefits-of-selenium.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2698273/#__ffn_sectitle

ETA while taking carcinine my sulfur issues resolved completely (by eaating high Boron foods, dried fruit, which are high sulfite at the same time ), but then I stopped tolerating it as well.

Interesting. Carcinine has antioxidant properties and reduces advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs). Why would it reduce sulfur?

When things stop working, its likely some threshold has been reached, likely running out of a substrate or one or more cofactors. Itd important to look at whole systems and ensure a proper balance of ingredients is in place to make the system work.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting. Carcinine has antioxidant properties and reduces advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs). Why would it reduce sulfur?

From the massive cravings I had for high Boron foods, and to some extent hi Moly too, I would say my body was making a lot of glutathione undisturbed...

 

[sam.d]

Thanks for all your input, I appreciate it!

Freddd has posted about a "magic meal" that an ancient, usually vegetarian religious group would use to get a boost of carnitine, amino acids and other nutrients every so often. It would help to increase their energy levels and provide what was lacking in their usual diet. The meal contained a lot of red meat and fish.

Acetyl-l-carnitine or l-carnitine-fumarate are available in capsules so it would be easy for @sam.d to try as an isolated nutrient. If there is no reaction then it might not be carnitine that relieved the PEM, or maybe it was a combination of carnitine and something else.

heapsreal, saying 'meat is a good source of carnitine' is misleading. Beef is high in carnitine. Pork has about 1/6th as much as beef. Chicken has only trivial amounts of carnitine, so eating chicken won't supply your carnitine needs. Back when meat was a problem, I could eat about 180 gms of beef without triggering symptoms. More than 30gms of pork would trigger symptoms. Even one bite of chicken would trigger symptoms. I thought it was something to do with the metabolic rates of the animals. I wanted to test that hypothesis, but sloth steaks are hard to come by here, and so are hummingbird thighs, so I didn't follow up. Then I saw the list of carnitine content of foods, with the ratio that matched my tolerances, and tested that instead, and found that it worked.

As someone else in this thread pointed out, carnitine solved the problem...for a while. Now it doesn't seem to have an effect, but what seems to have happened is that I lost (for now at least) the sensitivity to the fatty acids if they aren't accompanied by adequate carnitine.

Carnitine seems to be the most promising lead for my particular case (i.e. finding a factor that is specific to beef and is a known helper for me/cfs). It seems to only have a temporary effect for most. That's a pattern that's also seen in immunomodulators, right? Perhaps carnitine is one of those things you should only temporarily use as PEM 'buster'? I will surely test this out on my next PEM cycle and report back here. Big thanks @PatJ & @Wishful.

To the others here who are advising a whole foods fully rounded diet: I hear you and I wish I could do that, but I simply cannot digest meat. My constipation goes from 7/10 to 10/10 when I eat meat. That doesn't mean I'm vegeterian or vegan. I eat fish instead at every meal.

Unrelated: I'm going through a PEM cycle right now from carrying some water bottles last week. My gut is totally inflamed as per usual. I'm testing out Colostrum for the first time and it has a significant positive effect on my mood and energy levels during PEM. Specifically, I feel the increase in masculine hormone which I remember having in the days immediately following resistance training. Waking up with a bit of power, a good mood and a bit of a zest for life... it's been years since I felt that. I'm also planning to stop taking it as soon as my PEM subsides to avoid the long term wearing-off syndrome.

 

[Rita1979]

I always assumed it was zinc, so I have been supplementing with zinc for quite a while and, frankly, it doesn't do anything for my PEM. Is there another factor in red meat which could explain the relief effect on my PEM?

Zinc didn't help me as well. Niacin helped and B6 helped.

If you went vegan, you might check whether you had a high enough niacin intake. It is also among the nutrients that can come short in vegan and vegetarian diets. The body can convert tryptophan into niacin, but it also needs B6 for it. Being low in niacin will also deplete tryptophan sources and thus creates low serotonine.

I started taking Tryptophan and Niacin exactly because of my PMS symptoms that are debilitating. I almost felt immediate relief. However then I relied too much on niacin and left out Tryptophan with the consequence that I was again more unstable, although not as bad as the months before.

I am taking Tryptophan now again and my mood became better. So in my case Niacin/Trypophan/B6 is probably part of my PMS complex.

The important distinction is not to take niacinamide but the flushing version niacin. My B complex has 125mg niacinamide and it did nothing to help my PMS.

Magnesium and Vitamin C helped to get rid of the pain on the first days. However it didn't do much about the irritability and emotional distress in the days before.

 

[sue1234]

For some reason, I feel better after red meat, too. I could eat a more vegetarian style, but I do make myself eat meat. As you, I don't get that benefit from other meats, just red meat. I'm going to have to stock up and make myself eat it everyday to see if I can sustain some kind of energy. Being a slug is for the birds.

 

[TJ_in_UT]

Guys,
As I look back on my medical history through the lens of ME/CFS, I suddenly remembered something.

I had to completely stop eating meat 3 years ago, since I simply wasn't able to digest it anymore. In the 6 months before that, I was already experimenting with going vegan (it gave me so much energy) and I see now that I was also having my first PEM experiences.

I remember distinctly not being able to recover well from my regular exercise days for the first time, and suffering from cognitive symptoms and brain fog the following days. What I discovered then was that a single big red meat meal would completely snap me out of the PEM, even after being a week into it. Specifically I remember trying to achieve the effect with organ meat (liver,...) and chicken, even with all brands of whey protein shakes, but I found that only a big meal with minced beef was able to get me out of the PEM.

I always assumed it was zinc, so I have been supplementing with zinc for quite a while and, frankly, it doesn't do anything for my PEM. Is there another factor in red meat which could explain the relief effect on my PEM?

What's your blood type? Type O digestive systems are well-adapted to red meat, but rather poorly suited for vegetable proteins. Type A is just the opposite. Type B and AB are more omnivorous-adapted, with AB leaning more vegetarian and B lean more carnivorous. I'm a type B myself, and I start to wilt if I haven't eaten red meat in a few days.

 

[Rita1979]

I just came across this publication where they examine the influence of the daily intake of B vitamins on the onset of PMS and remembered your question

Dietary B vitamin intake and incident premenstrual syndrome

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076657/

For both thiamine and riboflavin, the level of intake at which we observed a benefit was considerably above current recommendations. For thiamine (RDA: 1.1 mg/d) (29), we found that women consuming ≈1.9 mg/d had a 25% lower risk of PMS than did those consuming ≈1.2 mg/d. This level of intake can be achieved by consuming 2–3 servings/d of thiamine-rich foods, such as fortified cereals, legumes, nuts, and red meats such as pork. For riboflavin (RDA = 1.1 mg/d) (29), women consuming ≈2.5 mg/d had a 35% lower risk than did those consuming ≈1.4 mg/d. This level of intake can be achieved with 1–2 servings fortified cereal/d or 6–7 servings riboflavin-rich foods such as cow milk or soy milk, spinach, and red meats.

 

[Gondwanaland]

https://www.nutritionadvance.com/healthy-foods/red-vs-white-meat/

 

[Gondwanaland]

but I am already overweight and can't follow the hyped paleo, LCHF, low lectin or AIP, which only made my health decline.

Just to correct myself: I am UNDERweight

 

[seunderwood]

I look at a meat in my diet as my base. If theres a need for other nutrients than fill the gaps with other foods or supplements. Other nutrients i have added to my diet is through trial and error or theres research to show it can help cfs. One example is q10 is found in beef and cfsers may find they need more so add q10 supplement.

I dont think any one diet is if its based around natural foods ie runs around on the ground, comes off a tree or pull it out of the ground. If most of ones food comes out of a packet than its going to have negative impact.

 

[seunderwood]

The amino acid Taurine is in red meat, chicken & liver..... deficiency in dogs causes heart problems, maybe it helps ?