Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by keenly, Jul 3, 2010.
Kirkman Biofilm Defense:
Some also add EDTA:
Some also add lactoferrin, available in vitamin stores.
One has to avoid enzymes containing protease, since enzymes for biofilms have to be taken on an empty stomach, and protease-containing enzymes can be irritating on an empty stomach.
just anecdotal here, but i have used natto and the results can be intense. i haven't taken any tests.
Oh yes, I am personally done with biofilm protocols. I had some very bad results, big inflamatory flares. Be very careful with biofilms. The problem is that good biofilms are made by healthy bacteria to protect the gut lining and act as a first immune system defense. By attacking biofilms, we might also be damaging these good ones, at least this my own theory, for what it's worth...
I've been taking Virastop off and on for a few years now and have noticed that sometimes they upset my stomach and sometimes they don't. When I asked someone at the HFS about this I was told that they will upset your stomach if you don't need them anymore. I normally wouldn't just trust someone at a HFS for advice but she's been right about other things too ...
Has anyone looked at a possible oxalate / biofilm connection ? About 6 months after eliminating high oxalate foods from my diet, I noticed a lot of nasty looking clots in my stools ... tmi ... I asked my GI for a colonoscopy and the prep seemed to clear the rest of it out ... :tear: :tear: Oh my, the things we say on the internet ... btw, colonoscopy looked great ...:victory:
Haritaki for biofilms / b. infantis for oxalates... ?
A molecule from the common indian (ayruvedic) herb Haritaki (Terminalia Chebula) has been shown to destroy biofilms -- it was discovered by a 17 year old medical student:
Haritaki is part of an ayurvedic formula called Triphala that has been used for thousands of years for gut problems.
Re oxalates: I know that they've isolated a strain of bacteria that digests oxalates -- but it isn't on the market yet. In the meantime, there are other strains that reduce it considerably, especially b. infantis, which has been shown to reduce oxalate levels by approximately 60%.
Do you know how solid this treatment for biofilms is ? I'm not up on all of this but I have to question whether we really want to be breaking down these biofilms ... what else are we breaking down ? does this affect the mucousal lining of the intestines ?
The last time I read about the probiotic (o.forminges) that helped to break up oxalates the lab was finding it impossible to stabilize it. Susan Owens, DAN oxalate researcher, keeps us up to date on this at the trying low oxalate board. You may be able to google her name and o.forminges and see what she had to say too. Or the lab that's trying to create it ...
I looked for b. infantis once and could only find it in a dairy base which means I can't use it. VSL #3 is good for breaking down oxalates too but it's a dairy base too. RATS ... X
The biofilms issue is complicated. I'm not sure I understand it completely myself. My doc explained that the biofilms help encase (or surround) certain types of infections, and in doing so, they are protected from the immune system (or antibiotic therapy, etc.). I've had a low-grade chronic sinus infection that doesn't bother me at all, but has never really gone completely away...in years. She says this is because it's protected by these biofilms, and prescribed Mucostop for that. Problem is I can't afford it, so I don't take it very often.
The triphala herbs mentioned above actually helps protect and "rebuild" the intestinal tract -- helps improve digestion, absorption, and both constipation and diarrhea or loose stools. I'll see if I can find a few studies (there's definitely more info in a google search or at ayurvedic sites)...
This study was done w/rats...
...but showed that triphala "significantly restored the depleted protein level in brush border membrane of intestine, phospholipid and glutathione content and decreased the myeloperoxidase and xanthine oxidase level in intestinal mucosa..."
The next one showed it helped wound healing and had antibacterial properties:
And this last one showed that haritaki (Terminalia chebula) was even more effective for healing wounds and had antimicrobial activity against Staphylococcus aureus and Klebsiella:
I wasn't aware that b. infantis was dairy based...not sure if there's a dairy free version available. A doc I had a few years ago put me on some 'human strain' probiotic...but can't remember the brand name or what strains were in it...
some doc who works with autistic, was it yasko? , don't remember, anyway , she tested before and after biofilm treatment and her story is patients were dumping metals. i have a feeling that was happening to me because i got a violent reaction to cilantro. i had been taking cilantro without the reaction, and then adding the enzyme --kaboom. this experiment is repeatable too.
Do you remember the enzyme that helped with your "violent reaction"?
There's another thread on biofiloms with lots of links nad shared experiences. Maybe the threads should be merged?
mark, it was natto. first i took natto, waited a couple of hours, took olive leaf and gse, then chitosan. that made me feel pretty ill. i stopped after two or three days of this, but kept up the natto. several weeks later adding cilantro and chlorophyl. that's when major diarrhea hit. which btw is something i never ever have. i asked on another thread of people who have detoxed metals if that sounds like a symptom of metal detox. i got a yes. it's super powerful treatment. perhaps needs to be pulsed.
DAN [Defeat Autism Now] -Physicians have developed a treatment protocol to treat biofilms. A very important part in this protocol is InterFase and InterFase plus, developed by Klaire Labs, consisting of a special formulation of enzymes, attacking the biofilms.
Here is some further info about InterFase :- http://www.klaire.com/index_proddetail.asp?id=K-INT
INTERFASE (60 Capsules)
Specialized enzymes disrupt biofilm matrix embedding potential gastrointestinal pathogens.
This highly specialized enzyme formula supports normal gastrointestinal function and microflora by assisting degradation of biofilm communities of potentially pathogenic bacteria and yeast.
Proprietary Enzyme Blend**
500 mg *
Providing the following active enzymes:
Polysaccharide Specific Enzymes
Glucoamylase (with isomaltase side chain activity)
Hemicellulase (xylanase) and Pectinase Complex
Protein and Peptide Specific Enzymes
Protease/Peptidase Complex with DPP-IV endo-peptidase/exo-peptidase
Lysozyme (from egg white)
Serratia peptidase (enteric-coated)***
Specialized enzymes and EDTA disrupt biofilm matrix embedding potential gastrointestinal pathogens.
InterFase Plus provides the same unique enzyme formulation as InterFase with the addition of ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA), which binds the metals needed for biofilm formation.
Rich posted about a Dr. Kunin who told him that normal pancreatic digestive enzymes might also work on the biofilm. This was 3 years ago. I'm not sure if there's been any recent developments as far as proving (or disproving) that theory.
This study (from 1936) showed that chymotrypsin -- one of the pancreatic enzymes -- inactivated an equine encephalomyletis virus, but it concludes that 'digestion products were not responsible for the inactivation'. So, not sure what to make of this, but here it is for others to study:
Dr K recomends Cistus herb for biofims, but it is not easy to get hold of. I managed to get some from Germany but have not used it yet as I have started Freddd`s protocol and dont want too many things going on at once. I will try it as a mouth wash to see if it whitens my teeth.
Since I'm already doing methylation now (which can release metals and other toxins) I'm not sure I want to break up my biofilm just yet since that could also release metals. Although I was sick with Lyme long before my amalgams, I've experienced a worsening of symptoms since then. Even if pancreatic enzymes do work, if I'm taking them with my meal it seems they won't have an effect on the biofilm. And as the person above mentioned, protease might not be good on an empty stomach. In another thread someone mentioned Candex enzymes as a possibility. I remember reading one or two customer reviews saying that it worked better if they emptied the capsules into water then drank the water (on an empty stomach of course).
Just checked out Candex. It looks like a very powerful formulation for breaking down biofilms. It has 128,000 CU of cellulase, compared to 500 CU in Kirkmans Biofilm Defense. WTF. Just ordered some. Go Ninja
Here's a recent post I did regarding enzymes and biofilms:
I know that nattokinase, lumbokinase and serrepeptaise are recommended for biofilms, but which one depends on where the biofilm is located.
You can also try a Google Site Search
Separate names with a comma.