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What Does Overmethylation Feel Like?

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by ktred, Mar 7, 2013.

  1. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    OK;
    I'm another one who's having trouble with folate and methyl groups excess problems. We're not alone in this.
    I've been trying to figure this out before posting, but I don't have it figured out; much of it is beyond me, and I don't have the full inclination to understand all the details and pathways to solve this. ( I'm a tired, ditsy artist, may I please be excused ?)

    When I skim through articles and reports... I'm looking for the solution, and accepting the process as a given. ( I realize that the process is important, and that understanding it can help to solve this problem, But ugh. )

    Meanwhile, I've improved my overmethylation symptoms by stopping folate supplements ( all of them), and reducing methyl groups, ( some foods, including coffee and tea, and supplements.)

    I still take methyl-B12, but I reduced it. I'm trying a combination of Mb12 and Hb12 to see if it helps, by possibly using some of the methyl groups. ( I'm a person who needs alot of B12.)

    Taking niacinamide and riboflavin has helped the overmethylation symptoms very well. ( My symptoms include inflammation of tissues, especially of my head and mouth, irritability, disturbed sleep, insomnia.)

    I've begun to take the Niacinamide in divided doses: 125 mgs. 2x daily. ( improvements with dividing the dosage.)
    Riboflavin, B2, 50mgs. 4x daily. ( I was taking more.)

    I agree that folate and methyl groups can help greatly with many conditions, but not everyone will need the high dosages recommended. These are powerful substances. ( understatement)
    Rolo likes this.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Crux
    Have you tried taking just folinic acid or does that increase methylation too much for you? I thought B2 was supposed to increase methylation (?) I have no idea if this is part of the reason why B2 and B3 helped you, but B2 and B3 are needed to recycle glutathione and overmethylation can lower glutathione. It's probably the reason you mentioned, but I thought I'd throw that hypothesis out there anyway. Are you referring to the caffeine in coffee and tea as a methyl donor? And which foods are methyl donors?
  3. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus;
    I shouldn't have included the restriction of foods in there. ( blooper, disinhibition of the frontal lobes,lol ). But I have lost the desire for beets, ( betaine, methyl donor), and I've been eating less beans, ( folate). I haven't restricted foods high in choline and methionine. (also methyl donors) Yes, it's the caffeine in tea and coffee that contains methyl donors.

    The B2 helps with the metabolization of folate,( methylation), among other things. (amines too) It has been a very effective anti-inflammatory for me in years past. ( migraines) So, I increased it when I began to have the same type headaches again. I thought the headaches were from the high folate intake alone, but it seems the increase in the methyl groups was also involved. ( I had increased methyl-B12 too.) B2 therapy for migraines may take time to work, several months, I've read. ( I began to feel better after a week or so.)

    The B3 does help consume methyl groups, ( learned from Dr.Ben Lynch's site, and other reading), and it has worked well in my case. I've found niacinamide to work just as well as niacin for the symptoms of overmethylation. ( in my case, it also helps the headache)

    I've read Rich's work, with his warnings about reducing glutathione from overdriving the methylation cycle, and I have no doubt that it's true. ( I haven't had tests, nor have I researched it.)

    I did try a folinic acid supplement over a year ago, and seemed to feel nothing from it. Unfortunately, I tossed it, because now I'm curious to see how I'd react. At this point, I still have some overall folate sensitivity, so I guess I would probably have a negative reaction. ( I've read that you have also become hypersensitive.)

    Since I was able to tolerate and benefit from lower dosages of folate in the past, I believe I'll be able to add it again in time. ( don't know how long) I think I caused an imbalance by taking too much of it, causing a disproportion with the other B's. ( Although I've read about this many times, I guess it took a bang to the head for me to believe it.)

    I finally ordered a 23andme test. Maybe it will help me figure this out. Meanwhile, I'll be very careful with folate.
    Rolo likes this.
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Since my health did get worse from overmethylating I do think he's right about overdriving the methylation cycle, but as far as the drop in glutathione causing excitotoxicity I don't know how much of that is theoretical since I don't understand this stuff well enough to know the difference between theory and fact. I don't take glutathione regularly anymore, but there has been a couple times that I seemed to be experiencing anxiety from overmethylation and taking a glutathione sublingual did seem to calm me down. I wouldn't necessarily recommend glutathione to anyone, but if it does work then I'd recommend taking it only as needed rather than every day.
    I do get folate from my foods, but I'm not sure how much of it I'm actually processing so I decided to slowly increase folinic acid. I'm doing this partially because there's some b complexes and multivitamins with only folinic acid and I want to be able to take those instead of taking all my b vitamins individually and/or taking b complexes with folic acid. I've considered my symptoms from methylfolate being from deficiency, but they continued for 5 weeks so I'm not sure.
  5. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Lotus97;

    I haven't tried glutathione alone, I've tried supps. to increase it. I'm hoping the B12 et al. will do that.

    I understand the difficulty with taking individual B's. I haven't been able to find one that suits me. I was very happy with the new chapters brand because the dosage is very low, but for the folate. One tablet contains 200 mcg. of folate. That was fine in the past. I'm hoping to return to using it, even though it's expensive.

    But, for now I'm just taking some individual B's, and extra nutritional yeast. Since I've stopped the headaches, I may start adding a bit of folate this weekend.

    I don't know if you've tried some extra B3 and B2, but it may help with the overmethylation problems.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    For anyone looking for a b complex without methylfolate or folic acid, I found a couple.
    This is one of the B complexes with only folinic acid/calcium folinate. I wouldn't recommend more than one per day due to the P5P and TMG which can contribute to overmethylation. I wouldn't worry about the methylcobalamin since you're taking it orally. The values are for 2 capsules.
    http://www.wellnessresources.com/products/super_b_complex.php
    There's also a multi with only folinic acid. The values are for 2 tablets or 4 capsules so I'd recommend capsules so you can divide up the doses.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/two.html
    Right now I'm taking a combination of b vitamins individually, b complex with folic acid, and this children's multi with a small dose of folinic acid and coenzymated b vitamins. It's chewable so I'm taking it sublingually. The values are for 2 tablets.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/vitamin-formulas/kids-mighty-multi-chewable.html
    There's also a company that sells a B50 with no folate or B12. All the stores selling it are based in the UK so the shipping's kind of pricey. These are the places that ship internationally
    http://www.vitaminsforlife.co.uk/biocare-b-plex-without-folic-acid-vitamin-b12-60-capsules.html
    http://www.totallynourish.com/biocare-b-plex-60-caps/en?#productAnchor
    http://www.biocare.co.uk/default.as...Guid=23660&PageItemGroupGuid=21#productAnchor
    https://www.revital.co.uk/-BioCare_B_Plex
  7. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus, Can U point me in the direction of that post that U felt was a herx. I've been doin' the protocol and my computer was down for 2 weeks . I am so far behind on my reading. I would like to read that post JIC I have those reactions.
    Thanks Lotus.
  8. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    Hi "the Spitfire" I'm happy to share the negatives and the positives and I will in even more detail, once my life has settled. U can't imagine what happens when one is OUT OF COMPUTER for over 2 weeks. I hope this can suffice for now:
    I started with 1 pure formula b- complex with metafolin for 3 months (just because) I have since switched to Douglas b-comples with metafolin and intrinsic factor...

    Initially I began in Dec with 1/2 of most things and worked my way up. I was also on all the co-factors except for TMG and Lecithin for a few years. I've found that I have kept myself out of a wheelchair by researching and using vitamins rather than continuing down the line of anti-depressants and abx and all the other stuff the drs. want to push on you. The moderator of my group is in a walker now. She has gone the MD route (and takes some vitamins)
    I work 1-3 days a week depending on the season; it's usually 2. I go to the city once a week and I spend a lot of time in bed cause I DON'T PACE. I will never PACE. I was not born to PACE, so I will be in bed recouping when I do too much which is often.
    So far I'm on 2,000mcg enzymatic therapy mB12 (I use methycobalmin instead of hydroxy cause I feel my body doesn't need to decide whether it's going to convert the hydroxy or not. My body is BAD. It doesn't do what it's suppose to so I give it no choices.
    8.6mg of adB12 (dibencoplex)
    2,400mg lecithin (which contains 2.4 phoshorus) got in chinatown out of desperation I will go back to dr.'s best
    2-855mg LCFumerate dr's best.
    2,000mcg solgar folate and finally today
    8-99mg of potassium gluconate (I was taking between 2-3. I was experiencing swollen, hot feet and ankles, SOB but NO CRAMPING. I was chalking the feet up to being on Famvir and the breathing up to emphezema (WRONG). A kind sole pointed out that 2,000mcg folate was a lot and perhaps I should back off or up my potassium. Someone else said tht the feet/ankles was a healing stage.
    I got the courage this evening to pass my 2-4 of potassium and before resting for the evening added another 4 to the 4 I had taken earlier. I was hating my feet feeling funny. Less than 1 hour my breathing is better, my feet are NOT swollen and my stuffy nose that came out of nowhere 2 nites in a row ...all gone.
    I have found my sleep is less on a daily basis but I feel less tired with less sleep. Dare I use the word a bit "refreshed" Something I have NOT felt since the onset in 1988. No more rolling over and dragging my butt to the kitchen. I get up and walk to the kitchen. I only get 4-5 1/2 hrs. sleep and that is on 3/4 of klonepin and 1-100mg 5htp or benydryl or 50mg tramadol (I mix it up so I don't hit tolerance with any one thing). As long as I can function with that amount of sleep I don't find a need to take anymore JUNK. (I was living on 2 hrs. sleep at one point...that was Horrid)

    I will say the first 4 weeks I was rockin' and rollin'. I was up and out and cleaning and cooking and shopping. The brain was working, I was a brilliant chatterbox just like I was before 1988. Than everything leveled out, so I started upping the dose.

    The first time in Aug. I started the protocol I was on 5,000mcg of Yarrow mB12 right out of the gate with 1-solgar folate. I DID NOT SLEEP AT ALL. I finished that bottle and gave up. I continued to come here and read and gave it another shot in Dec. 2012 just before I was sick with the flu. Than another flu and finally NOROVIRUS in Feb. through all of that I'm glad I stuck it out. I am grateful where I am and I will get back, "that lovin feelin" I had. Or I'll die trying.

    I appreciate any direction anyone gives me cause I sure don't know what I'm doin' nor do I understand a lot of what is explained. I read and forget like many of us. Everyone here, I've found, to be kind. I pick and choose what I will and will not due. I certainly made a mistake by titrating so slowly on the potassium but IT IS MY CHOICE to take the advise or sit here being SCARED. Silly! I was very SILLY. I hope this encourages you to maybe start the SMP either Rich or Freddd's SLOWLY and know that there are MANNNNNNNNNY people here that have your back. OK. 8-}
    Happy Healing and
    Hugs
    The Spitfire likes this.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I wasn't the one experiencing a herx. When I was overmethylating I experienced mainly anxiety and heart palpitations.

    There were two threads started by sregan and that's the person who had the symptoms. Both had SMP in the title. The other thread is the one I started about folic acid and Plum was the person having the symptoms. I'm not sure if the herx symptoms are necessarily from overmethylation, but higher doses will probably make them worse. On the first page of this thread I posted a quote from Rich about processes going on during methylation which might explain why people are experiencing the symptoms. Not the quote about excitotoxicity which is from overmethylation, but rather this one further down the page:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-overmethylation-feel-like.22229/#post-345561
    It really depends on a person's overall health as far as whether or not they can "push through" or if it will just make their health worse. For me even low doses made my health worse. Methylation is only one of a dozen things I'm doing for my health right now. I've had my SNPs tested so hopefully when I get the results I'll have a better idea of how to proceed.
    No. I can't imagine what that's like. I'd go insane:alien:
    So did that help your herx symptoms?
  10. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    There are many posts by sregan a plum....I guess I will come across it at some point in time.

    Perhaps Lotus, you did not understand what I asking or I did not explain myself clearly. I AM NOT EXPERIENCING A HERX. IMHO...to the best of my knowledge. I think the term "herx" is used v. much out of order on these boards therefore, I wanted to READ the post so I can judge, for myself what that person was experiencing. In August I experienced "overstim" . Simply put "my insomnia got worse". I worked it for 30 days and stopped but LMS, I started on 5,000mcg of Yarrow mb12 out of the gate. Not ignorance; just machoism. I was wrong, very wrong. I prepared this time with a better b-complex for 3 months before starting anything else. I did MARVELOUSLY. I posted my current situation to "spitfire" above.
    To me a herx. is something that keeps U in bed rolled up in a ball from detoxing or anti-virals doing their thing. I have HERXED. Last March I did 3 days of juicing and MSM. I was bed ridden for 3 months; using the bathroom with ANYTHING I put in my mouth. Once I was able to function I found out right here that my problem was "the greens" and MSM either fake folates or thiol or sulfate. We all know about sulfur NOW!
    I know I need to do the 23 & me. I will soon.

    The term HERX is Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction . I STRONGLY suggest anyone wanting to know about herxing google the above.

    I am stable on my SMP. I'm testing the water with another mB12. I feel stable enough to do this. Crux pointed out some of the EFFECTS (not herx) I was experiencing was lack of potassium and Crux was w/o a doubt right on. (discussion is on Fake Folate post). I am up to 12 potassium now. It fixed the SOB, most times the feet burning/hot. I still NEVER get cramps. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. Using the word HERX is scary. The last thing we need on these boards are alarmists that may scare someone enough to have them avoid trying either of the SMP's because of the word
    "herx" and NOT beginning their path to HEALING because of fear.

    I will also add that I am on an anti-viral w/o incident. I feel that it has been working seamlessly because I prepped by body with vitamins and the SMP. I also asked some questions about valtrex BEFORE I filled the script the dr. gave me........... Details:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/insanely-high-hhv6-level.21754/ once again, the support is amazing here. NO DRAMA; just help. I'm now on famvir (a generic) and doing well.

    If you ever come across the posts by Sregan and Plum just cut n paste. Thanks Lotus
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Ok, I missed the part where you said "JIC". Toxins are mobilized through methylation via the transsulfuration pathway. Sregan, for example has mercury toxicity which got worse last year after having amalgams removed. As for sulphur/thiols/sulphates/sulfites and other toxins, this is part of the quote from Rich I was talking about.
    The result is that methionine synthase becomes partially blocked, and the sulfur metabolites drain down the transsulfuration pathway, into sulfoxidation, and get excreted too much as taurine and sulfate, which depletes methionine. The whole sulfur metabolism becomes dysfunctional, and that takes down the cell-mediated immune response as well as the detoxication system. As well, everything that depends on methylation reactions is affected, including gene expression, synthesis of several needed substances, and the neurotransmitter metabolism.

    Methylation can also increase inflammation which is something else that would cause the herx symptoms since the Herxheimer Effect causes inflammation. This is what Rich said about inflammation and methylation
    My guess is that when there is an inflammation response to methylation cycle treatment, there is an infection. If the inflammation continues without resolution, then my guess is that the immune system has been reactivated, but is not capable of defeating an existing infection. In such cases, I think that treating to support the immune system would be one approach. Another would be to test to determine what pathogen is causing the infection, and then treating it with an antibiotic, antiviral or antifungal, depending on the pathogen.

    I also asked dbkita about inflammation from methylation and this is what he told me
    I would substitute any chronic inflammatory disorder for infection (i.e. autoimmune, heavy metal burden, etc.) Anything that has the immune system going. One mechanism that hypermethylation might exacerbate underlying inflammation is via catecholamine production and specifically NE. Multiple doctors (yasko, Lynch, Neubrander, etc.) warn that from clinical observations underlying inflammation can be made worse with methylation. That being said they don't maybe factor in the role of adb12 for example or the importance of ATP generation . Certainly high levels of methylfolate both exacerbate my potassium excretion and increase methylation for me with my autoimmune disease. It is all about finding the balance.
    cph13 likes this.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Something happened back when I was taking too much methylfolate and overmethylating. Aside from anxiety, wiredness, and overstimulation I would also experience heart palpitations. The strange thing is that I'd be sitting at the computer for awhile and experience the other symptoms, but not the heart palpitations. As soon as I'd lie down (my computer is right next to my bed) I'd experience the most severe heart palpitations in my life. Sometimes I'd be lying in bed and be ok, then I'd stand up maybe only for 10-15 seconds and when I'd lie down again I experienced the heart palpitations. In my research I stumbled across POTS/orthostatic intolerance, but I've never experienced the symptoms before so I don't think I have either of those conditions and I'm not even sure my symptoms match up with those conditions since I haven't done much research on the subject.
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    In my recent research I noticed an old post of yours where it sounded like at one point you were taking 800 mcg of methylfolate without any problems. And now you're not able to tolerate any? Do you have any idea why this change has occurred? Has your health gotten worse? I'm not sure, but I think that for myself I've been more sensitive to methylation as my health has gotten worse. Actually, I just reread another one of your posts in this thread where you say you think it's due to taking too high of a dose, but I'm still curious if you've considered other factors such as worsening of health or something else that's occurred to you since your last post. And have you tried taking a low dose of methylfolate such as under 100 mcg or even 50 mcg?
  14. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus;

    Firstly, I'm very impressed with your talent for research and observation. Quite remarkable!
    Yes, I've taken 800 mcg. of methylfolate in the past without noticing any problems. ( there were some subtle ones)
    Then there were times I increased the dosage even higher, 2-3 mgs. daily. That's when I began to notice; increased tissue inflammation, irritability, anxiety, insomnia, etc.

    I've tried this many times with the same results. It's been very disappointing, because the folate really increased my energy. I also recommended it to other folks here for that reason.

    I stopped all folate supps. for a couple of months, and then began to add 100 mcg. At first, I didn't tolerate that either. At that time I was beginning to realize I wasn't reponding to the brand of B12 subs. I was taking. ( low B12 symptoms returned)

    So, I think the problem is from multiple causes. I need the proper type/brand/dosage of B12 or I build up excess folate, causing intolerance/inflammation. ( I just had serum folate measured, it was very elevated.)

    I've also been having some low thyroid symptoms, so I've begun low dose thyroid meds. again. ( metabolic problems)

    I agree that a worsening of health is a possible factor with folate intolerance. ( B12 too)
    There are pathogens that have a particular affinity for B12/folate, etc. ( infections)

    I think I can understand your challenges in trying to find out why you also have an intolerance to these supplements, especially when you've brought up that you have neurological symptoms.

    This is very difficult -
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Usually people start at a low dose and build up to a higher dose so your experience stuck in my mind since it's the opposite of what people normally experience.
    If you decide to try this route instead I'll be curious what the results are. One person said that taking folinic acid first helped them tolerate methylation supplements better, but it seems more likely that you could have a negative reaction. I've actually been slowly raising my folinic acid. I'm up to 225 mcg now. It seems to being going ok so far. I'm only taking 500 mcg hydroxocobalamin and 1000 mcg adenosylcobalamin though. I'm not sure how much folate sensitivity is due to overmethylation though. There have been several theories proposed and it could be different for each person. No one seems to know. I asked dbkita who seems to have an answer for almost everything and even he was stumped.
    I asked you partially just because I was curious, but it's probably true that my curiosity stems at partially from my own experience. As I said above, the cause could be different for each person. What do you mean by neurological symptoms? I'm not saying I don't have them, but I'm not sure what you mean. Or when people use the term "neurological healing". I'm not sure what exactly is being "healed".
  16. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    PS Apologies, I'm still trying to learn how to do quotes.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    You just copy and paste the text into the box at the bottom and then highlight what you want quoted then click on the quote symbol. It's at the bottom right.
    I have joint pain. I'm not sure what's causing it, but my guess is that it's related to Lyme. I tried Lyrica and that didn't seem to help. I'm not sure anti-inflammatory supplements really help either. When I was making a recovery over the past few years (before my relapse at the end of last summer), a lot of my symptoms improved including the joint pain. I attribute my recovery largely to getting a lot of sleep and limiting activities and sources of stress. I was taking a lot of supplements during that time, but I've been taking a lot of supplements during my relapse so I think the other stuff helped more than supplements.
    Part of the reason I mentioned it is because there's a thread about COMT and some of the people in the thread said they didn't have a hypersensitivity to methylfolate which makes me wonder whether it is overmethylation or not. My symptoms were the standard overmethylation symptoms (anxiety and heart palpitations) and they lasted 5 weeks until I finally stopped. I wasn't taking any B12 except a low oral dose of methylcobalamin and then TMG (as betaine hcl). Have you tried taking the methylfolate before you take any B12? I assume you've tried that so I'll just ask was there a difference in reaction?
    There was a thread where someone said taking folinic acid gave them a lot of energy. I don't know if it was directly from the folinic acid or from converting it into methylfolate. If it's the latter, then it probably wouldn't do you any good because you'd end up in the same place as with taking methylfolate directly. I'm not sure as to what doses it takes for folinic acid to affect CNS and neurotransmitters so I can't really say what's going on with the person I mentioned (this is a different person than the one I mentioned in my earlier post who also had good results with folinic acid). You could also be one of those unlucky few who aren't able to process folinic acid. I've only heard of one other person having this besides Freddd, but since most people are following Rich or Freddd's protocol which either have only 200 mcg folinic acid or none at all it's unclear. There's a thread in the SNP forums discussing which SNPs could be involved with folinic acid.
    So does everyone here have myelin damage and does everyone need "neurological healing"?
  18. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Lotus97;

    Hi Lotus, Thanks for the instructions.
    It looks like rest and stress reduction have been the most effective means for your recovery.
    But, you have some remaining issues to resolve? I understand how helpful the SMP could be.

    Personally, I may have snps that would indicate my hypersensitivity to methyl groups and folate, and that information would help to verify, but I'm duly convinced by the 'face-plants' I've been having with testing the supplements. I believe it's simply quantity, over type and timing of the dosage in my case.

    There have been many people here who respond better to hydroxocobalamin over methylcobalamin. There have also been people here who prefer folinic acid over methylfolate. I wish there were an easier method than trial and error, although genetics testing looks to be one of the better ways, ( though still not completely definitve).

    From reading people's reviews here about their results, I believe there isn't a "one" that is best for everyone.

    I have no idea whether everyone here has myelin damage or needs neurological healing. That would be a sweeping generalization, statistically implausible. Impossible? not sure. Many folks here have lesions that were detected via MRI, but many of us have had 'normal' MRI's. ( I believe MRI's need to be bettered.)
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    That wasn't the intention of my post. I hope you didn't interpret it that way. I don't know what will work for you. I was just curious what you had tried and shared what I've heard.
    I don't know if there's many people have really experimented with folinic. I've only heard from a few people who've taken more than the 200 mcg. There was a study done on CFS patients with Epstein Barr Virus using an extremely high dosage of folinic acid.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...l-to-81-of-cfs-patients-plus-biomarker.21745/
  20. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Lotus97;

    Hi Lotus, I was thanking you for the instructions on how to do quotes. I'm techno-slow, but still trainable.

    Yes, I see people are combining folates. I'll consider trying low dose folinic acid alone in the future out of curiosity, but I'm going to wait...I need to reduce this elevated serum folate. ( cancer in the family)

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