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What category do you fall into for your diet?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Dan Neuffer, Jan 29, 2013.

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Which category do you fall into for your Diet?

  1. I was Vegetarian/Vegan IN THE TIME LEADING UP TO my illness starting.

    8.2%
  2. I was Vegetarian/Vegan for during most of the time I have been ill trying to recover..

    1.4%
  3. I have been Vegetarian/Vegan for most of my adult life.

    8.2%
  4. I have not been Vegetarian/Vegan. (excluding any short trials)

    82.2%
  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    One reason why a lot of veggies and vegans may not eat healthily is the difficulty of getting healthy vegan/veggie food when eating out, e.g. at work, school, restaurants, other people's homes, etc., and the poor nutritional quality of veggie convenience foods. I think it's very much a cultural thing. Many is the time I have found that there is absolutely nothing for me to eat in a pub or restaurant, and once even at an event where I had been promised that I would be catered for, other than chips ('fries' in US-speak) and/or a bit of salad.

    People who are veggie or vegan also need to think 'outside the box' more. Gluten-free/low-grain/low-sugar adds another layer of complication and demands a bit of inventiveness. But I don't find it difficult when at home, and there are some eateries that cater well for me now, even in the relatively-unenlightened Duchy of Cornwall.

    But it should still be borne in mind that most scientific studies show that veggies and vegans are at least as healthy as omnivores.
     
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Try some internet searches on the Palaeolithic diet, and you will find quite a lot of scientific support for it.

    Ancient hominids were cooking even before Homo sapiens evolved, so there was no need for meat to be raw. Cooking can also improve the nutritional value of vegetables, making them easier to digest.

    This pdf on the subject is interesting:

    http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitst...d=4F160C0682353D0A3973BB95B6D8DF1A?sequence=1
     
  3. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    After I posted I did a bit of an internet dig. I see there is conflicting scientific information.

    The Macrobiotics are big fans of cooking and not much raw due to this idea that cooking improves food and makes it easier to digest.

    This is in contrast to the raw people who say that any cooking above a certain temperature induces - i think the word may begin with a k or an l- its when it causes the immune system to attack itself as it doesnt recognise the cooked food - there are scientific studoes to prove this.

    The Cave Man would have cooked a whole deer over the fire it says leaving all the blood still very rare/raw on the inside.
    Anything we have now just isnt comparible I dont think.

    Plus if we are meant to be modelling ourselves on The Cave Man then surely sleeping like a Cave Man woild be important too.

    There are many scientific studies which say that Vegetarians are healthier.

    I am not one for scientific studies though as most are seriously flawed.

    If there is one thing M.E. has given me, its to show me the farse of 'Science'.
     
  4. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    It is indeed true that there is a lot of poor science, and it is difficult or impossible for a layperson to differentiate between good science and bad science. It was only through 10 years of intense study that I learned how to tell the difference. It's unfortunate that science journalists don't usually have a good understanding.

    Science is also full of legitimate contradictions, and it is never complete. What a study shows will depend on a wide range of factors, such as the people studied, the nature of any intervention and/or analysis, the statistical methods used, etc., etc.

    I don't think we need to emulate cave men (or in my case - women) in every way!

    The reason that diet may be crucial for us is largely due to the likely involvement of digestive abnormalities.

    Cooking does destroy some enzymes, which I think is the main basis for raw food diets. A combination of raw and cooked veg is probably best where vegetables are concerned.
     
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  5. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I think to the average layperson, once the pompous ambiguity and deliberate attempts to overcomplicate have been cut through - the average layperson is very well qualified in understanding the farse.

    The ego does like to sit firmly and comfortably in 'science'. But I doubt in a hundred years time there will be many of todays theories left.

    I wonder about the beginnings of cooking food then. If we accept it as healthy, ok and normal and not raw, then it seems a bit contradictory to me.


    Is it keritinosis? this applies to cooked meat too.

    It has been said that meat is too difficult to digest full stop. These are from meat eaters who found it of great benefit to go Vegetarian and improved their M.E.
     
  6. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    MeSci

    p.s. its called LEUKOCYTOSIS

    I am not explaining myself well at all - I am sorry

    http://www.rawfoodinfo.com/articles/art_leukocytosisandcooked.html

    Unfortunately O could not access your link :( but I will continue researching...

    The only diet that I could see as potentially being of healing benefits are macrobiotics and raw veganism.

    Now living on raw food, the idea of it, makes me feel cold :)

    Also looking at food in an energetic way - which western science is miles behind on, it is said cold food is not good for the kidneys.

    Macrobiotics is an energetic food system too.

    There are also the Emotional and Spiritual angles to contemplate. I see the yoga forums have some vigorous debates on food :)
     
  7. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    http://www.greatveganathletes.com/

    Here is a link on great vegan athletes...

    enjoy :)


    I must say though that I seem to have come across Naturopaths who say small portions of meat and fish are crucial.

    And also I forgot to mention there does seem to be a few yoga people around who have added meat and say it grounded yhem or gave them energy etc....
     
  8. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    anneikim~ From what I've read, those who live the healthiest and the longest lives are people who eat a whole foods, plant based diet. So, those who eat a lot of meat (grass fed or not) do not fall into this category. See: http://tinascocina.com/healthy-eating/ (read from Reducing your Cancer Risk to the end, especially the section on Enjoy Longevity).

    The Standard American Diet is now full of nutrient poor foods instead of nutrient dense foods, and the results are quite clear with our obesity, CHD, diabetes and hypertension rates soaring.

    Some animal foods are fine to eat (in my opinion). But it should be more like a garnish than a plateful. Starches are fine, as long as they are unrefined and tolerated. I see no reason to give up grains unless they are not tolerated. Since each person is an individual, food intolerance is an individual thing and there is no good test to identify what one can or cannot tolerate. Elimination and retrial is the only way to know for sure.

    I'm glad that you have found what works for you (small amounts of animal protein and starch). I am still playing around with what (if any) foods are bothering me. :thumbdown:

    I recently attended this conference: http://www.vegetariannutrition.org/ which reinforced my beliefs that whole foods, plant based diet should be what we eat the most of, not only for health but for environmental reasons. (Having said that, I will state that at this time my body is not tolerating legumes and I am eating turkey for my protein! :rolleyes: ) There is no way that this planet can survive if everyone is to be fed lots of animal products. If you wish to read the abstracts from the talks here they are: http://www.vegetariannutrition.org/2013-abstracts.html Reading just the first abstract might be of interest to you.

    Dan~ I'm sorry that you didn't get what you wanted to from the poll. I think you also mentioned what I feel is important to think about...and part of what I also took away from the conference I just attended. It isn't just about being vegetarian or not (although it is quite clear from epidemiological studies that those who eat less animal products are healthier), but it is about the overall quality of the diet that is healthy. One could be an omnivore, a pescavore, a vegetarian or a vegan and eat quite healthfully or eat terribly. It isn't just about whether one eats meat or not, but what does the overall diet look like? Is if full of sugar, salt, fat and processed foods? Then it isn't healthy. Is it full of whole foods with a heavy emphasis on plant foods, specifically vegetables and fruits? Then it likely is healthy.

    Best,
     
  9. Dan Neuffer

    Dan Neuffer

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    Hi Timaca, I think you hit on the head with your last comment in terms of what a health diet is.

    I only disagree with a couple of aspects.

    Personally, given the inflammation and direct link to heart disease as well as many others, that excessive Omega 6 fats play, I see a lot of support for us not having such grains in our diet, or at least limiting how much of them we eat. And frankly, I don't think that anyone is made for eating gluten, some of us just tolerate it better (healthy people that is, not people with CFS/FMS).

    The second is that a healthy (and whilst you manage such a version, I belief most don't, especially vegans) vegan/vegatarian diet may be fine and if it has a lot of whole foods, it can be great for people's health. However, given the issues and demands of the body in CFS/FMS, I personally believe that it does not provide the required amino acids in the crazy dysfunctional CFS/FMS body. The demands are too high.

    Also, I still beleive that people that are vegetarians are forced to eat more carbs to make up their calory requirements (if you reduce protein and fat, you have to eat something). I feel that this is a problem for people with CFS/FMS as it feeds what I believe to be the root cause via the triggering of hypoglycaemic episodes.

    For healthy people, a good vegetarian diet may be healthier, but I wonder about a vegan diet.

    Dan

    PS: Obvioulsy it's only healthy assuming that you are avoiding poisoness foods like unfermented soy products that are full of carcinogens like phytoestrogens.
     
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  10. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Hi Dan~
    Omega 6 fatty acids are quite prolific in oils and processed foods (since they often contain oils or are fried in them). If a person cuts down on their fat intake they would automatically reduce their omega 6 consumption. This approach would be better than reducing whole grain consumption (unless one is not tolerating grains). See: http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400149/balancing-omega-3-and-omega-6.html If you look at this table, you will see that the top 2, 3 and 4 contributors of omega 6 fatty acids are desserts, salad dressings and fried snack foods. http://riskfactor.cancer.gov/diet/foodsources/fatty_acids/table2.html These are nutrient poor foods, so if you cut them out of the diet you will be cutting out about 22% of the omega 6 fatty acids that the average person consumes. If you look further and cut out the other nutrient poor foods (pizza, fried white potatoes, mayonnaise and sausage) you will cut out another 14%. It could be argued that most quick breads are high sugar, high fat (unless homemade to be healthy) so one could eliminate those too. So, it would be easy to reduce the omega 6 intake of the diet by 39% very easily. In the other dishes (chicken, mexican, etc) if one cooks without oil, that would further reduce the omega 6 contribution. I think this is a better approach to reducing omega 6 intake instead of cutting out whole grains. (I am all for reducing the intake of refined grains).

    How many grams per kilogram of protein do you feel someone with CFS needs? Do you have journal articles that state that a person with CFS needs more protein than a healthy person?

    Carbs do not necessarily cause hypoglycemic episodes. They can, of course, if eaten in isolation, and are refined carbs (or worse yet soda), but rarely does one sit down and eat a baked potato all by itself. Foods are usually eaten together and if one eats a variety of whole, unrefined plant foods, or such foods with lean animal protein or a small amount of olive oil at a meal then hypoglycemic episodes are not going to happen. See #2: http://www.glycemicindex.com/faqsList.php#1 Of course, every one is different, and people do have to listen to their bodies and do what seems to work best for them.

    I also state that this is true with regard to consuming any food: grains, soy, tree nuts, dairy, gluten, etc. Some people can eat these foods without problems, other can have significant issues. We are all different and we must listen to our bodies.

    The key, whether healthy or CFS, is to eat a nutrient dense diet, which is adequate in macro and micro nutrients. Both a vegetarian diet and an omnivore diet can do this if one chooses food wisely. A vegan diet will need supplements (B12 and possibly iron and zinc)

    Prior to getting CFS I was very healthy, ate very healthy and was extremely athletic. I truly believe that my CFS is infection associated (and I have labs that certainly seem to substantiate this). I am also wondering if due to the infections I have developed food intolerance. I am experimenting with this idea now and it seems quite possible. This is quite surprising to me. For example, when trying to reintroduce peanuts, pecans and yesterday strawberries, I was essentially housebound and in bed. Today I am fine. It amazes me that I felt so poorly yesterday...and all because of strawberries. (At least I *think* it was strawberries. To know for sure I will need to retest them....not a fun idea at this point in time since I felt so poorly yesterday).

    Has a certain type of diet helped you?

    Best,
     
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  11. loz

    loz

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    Hello

    I know this is a old post but I would like to share my thoughts. I was vegetarian when I got ill have been on and off for many years. Now three years into the illness my diet has completely changed and I am border line Vegan, I eat honey so I cannot say I am vegan and I haven't looked at non food products like clothes I wear yet, so borderline vegan.

    the change has come naturally. I had to eliminate certain foods due to intolerances although I was already intolerant to wheat and gluten and was also on a wheat and gluten free diet for 10yrs prior to illness. I also try to live a spiritual life and have always struggled with idea of eating animals.

    When I got ill I started eating fish, my carer was a fish eater so I went along with it. I think also I had in the back of my mind that I needed protein and may be my vegetarian diet may have contributed as I searched endlessly for a 'reason'.

    My diet improved in terms of eating healthily but my ME hasn't improved much, so I cannot say diet is a contributor. I decided to go back to vegetarianism, fish made not difference in fact my body told me to stop eating fish. I cannot eat eggs any way and I found diary difficult so combined with my spiritual mind and food intolerances and the fact eating fish made little difference I have naturally gone to near veganism.

    I think it is important to say that although I am nearly vegan my diet is 100% healthier and more adventurous. I am eating foods I never heard of and I am eating properly. Pre illness my diet was ok, I wasn't I fast food person, but I did drink fizzy pop and eat chocolate, but other than that my diet was pretty good as a vegetarian. the difference now is I don't eat any rubbish at all, but the ME hasn't improved much neither has it got worse on this near vegan diet.

    The improvement I have seen is less stomach pain and sickness, I think that is because I am not eating any food that I am intolerant to, were as I was at first and didn't realise it. ie) after blood test I was told I was intolerant to milk, eggs, and a load of other foods and at the time I consume dairy products and some of the other foods that were oi the list. Now I have a diet that suits me. I have had to become adventurous and educated in foods, my care'r as well as he cooks.
     
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  12. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    for me I am finding a low FODMAPS diet helps with IBS

    I would li to cut out dairy but it seems I am addicted

    any advice onn how go cold turkey would e appreciated.

    Ally
     
  13. loz

    loz

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    Hi Ally

    I don't think it is a matter of going cold turkey. For me it was a natural process, listening to my body and more importantly listening to my inner voice not listening to others, external beliefs, theories etc I started by eliminating problem foods through trial and error although I had two tests, hair and blood for food intolerances but relied on trial and error and watched how my body reacted, my stomach etc Then I googled vegan recipes, and built up a new menu for myself while still on my old regime of eating dairy and fish at the time. I had to make sure I had enough alternative recipes so when I eliminated fish and dairy I was still eating properly, dropping foods such as meat, fish and dairy after many years can be challenging for most people even more when you debilitated by this illness and people often fall into poor diet because they don't know what to eat. I had to print recipes of because even now they don't come naturally easy for me to do because I forget and I have little energy.

    Eventually I eliminated the foods naturally, it didn't feel like I was 'giving up and missing foods' it felt like I was 'gaining' a new diet, new experiences and my diet has extended, eating foods I never even heard of.

    Finally I just knew I was eating in accordance to my inner being, I felt I was more aligned to my true self. Then I read a book called world peace diet and I knew after reading that book that the changes I had made were right. That book confirmed it for me. I don't label myself as a vegan, I try not to identify myself as a vegan just as I try not to identify myself as having ME I just try and live my life from my inner being and not from the brain, all the thoughts, they are nonsense and I have stopped living my life according to other peoples opinions and theories especially around food.
     
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  14. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    What makes you think that you are addicted? Do you feel ill if you cut things out?
     
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  15. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    I just seem to crave it.... milk drinks like coffee and chocolate in particular

    so I think should have a nice green tea but I will want an have a hot chocolate instead - I will feel empty without something richer

    I am lactose intolerant but not allergic to dairy.

    I take lactase caps any time I eat lactose or mu abdo bloats terribly

    cheers

    Ally
     
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I don't see why you can't have a hot chocolate. If you need it sweet, you can use xylitol. You could use a plant-derived milk substitute if that is the problem. Some of these are better than others for these purposes, also depending on how you make hot chocolate. I don't know which ones are best for this, but others can probably help.
     
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  17. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    Thanks MeSci I have lately found that good pure cocoa is actually quite nice with just hot water - does not even need the milk at all

    Yes I was taking it with Soy milk at times too - was OK and you get used o the different taste

    Ally
     
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