What are the best Herbs for CFS/Leaky gut?

[tyson oberle]

Contents of the intestine passing into the bloodstream? I have never understood how this could be true.............unless of course someone had a bad injury. No.........never believed it.........we'd all be running around with sepsis. I do believe however that intestinal gases can permeate the intestinal wall.

I certainly don't know what the truth is, but there are ME/CFS doctors/researches who believe many of us have low-grade chronic sepsis

 

[Tammy]

I certainly don't know what the truth is, but there are ME/CFS doctors/researches who believe many of us have low-grade chronic sepsis

I should have Edited: I think the term "leaky gut" is used too loosely. People with gut problems.....IBS, cholitis, etc. etc. are often linked with having leaky gut..............but if a person truly had a problem with bacteria getting into the bloodstream..........they would end up with high fever, extreme pain and probably end up in the ER. So I retract my statement. I do believe that bacteria from the intestines can end up in the bloodstream............but it would make a person VERY ill with high fever, extreme pain..........and true sepsis. I don't think the common gut complaints are a result of bacteria getting into the bloodstream. I hope I made sense???

 

[Hip]

Contents of the intestine passing into the bloodstream? I have never understood how this could be true.

I have to admit that I have not come across a study providing evidence that proteins and bacteria from the intestines can translocate through a leaky intestinal wall and into the bloodstream (though I have not looked that hard).

However, the way I understand it, we are not talking about a large flow of bacteria or proteins entering the blood that might cause septicemia, just slow a trickle.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

I have to admit that I have not come across a study providing evidence that proteins and bacteria from the intestines can translocate through a leaky intestinal wall and into the bloodstream (though I have not looked that hard).

However, the way I understand it, we are not talking about a large flow of bacteria or proteins entering the blood that might cause septicemia, just slow a trickle.

I think it would also help, if when people are imagining transfer across "the gut" (which is an active process) we could have a better idea of scale. Bacteria are enormous, amino acids and glucose are small, pectin and other fiber molecules are large, sodium ions are teeny weeny etc. This is how I imagine it anyway. Imagining a bacteria can cross the gut wall is akin to trying to drive an aircraft carrier down a small one way pedestrian walkway manned by a policeman who has an emp device that stops the ship in its tracks 4 streets ahead of it ever reaching the walkway. Only really small things can transfer across into blood unless the gut wall has been breached. My analogy is probably way off on scale but you get the picture.

 

[dannybex]

Here's a good overview of intestinal permeability:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4253991/

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

This is probably more specific

 

[alicec]

it suggests (I think) that cerebral ammonia is detoxified primarily during the conversion of glutamate to glutamine. But then...

"Much of the newly synthesized glutamine is subsequently metabolized in mitochondria by phosphate-activated glutaminase, yielding glutamate and ammonia. In this manner, glutamine (the Trojan horse) is transported in excess from the cytoplasm to mitochondria serving as a carrier of ammonia."

But it then proposes that this glutamine-derived ammonia interferes with mitochondrial function.

The article is about neurotoxicity in hepatic encephalopathy and I think the key to the apparent contradiction lies in the amount of glutamine formed in the astrocyte.

The article is highlighting mechanisms whereby EXCESS glutamine in the astrocyte (formed to deal with excess ammonia) can itself be neurotoxic.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I do believe however that intestinal gases can permeate the intestinal wall.

I usually get great symptom relief with simethicone even though I do NOT have a noticeable gas problem.

 

[Hip]

I think it would also help, if when people are imagining transfer across "the gut" (which is an active process) we could have a better idea of scale. Bacteria are enormous, amino acids and glucose are small, pectin and other fiber molecules are large, sodium ions are teeny weeny etc.

I agree, and I found it confusing to read statements saying that both proteins and bacteria can translocate into the bloodstream in cases of leaky gut, as the size difference between these two is enormous.

The mass of a single average-sized protein molecule is in the order of 50,000 daltons, 1 whereas the mass of a single bacterium is in the order of 5 billion daltons (so a single bacterium is about 100,000 times more massive than a protein molecule).

I can imagine that translocation of a protein molecule at 50,000 daltons might be possible if the holes in the intestinal wall are large enough (and it may be even easier for partially digested protein fragments of smaller dalton weight to pass though these holes); however, to then extrapolate to a whole bacterium passing through is another matter.

Although note that bacteria can often synthesize connective tissue-destroying enzymes that can allow them to "burn" through and penetrate human tissues, so possibly bacteria will use different mechanisms to penetrate the intestinal wall.

 

[ljimbo423]

Imagining a bacteria can cross the gut wall is akin to trying to drive an aircraft carrier down a small one way pedestrian walkway manned by a policeman who has an emp device that stops the ship in its tracks 4 streets ahead of it ever reaching the walkway.

Researchers are not talking about whole bacteria passing through the gut in leaky gut, that would be sepsis. They are talking about endotoxins and bacterial DNA passing through.


This can provoke an immune response, as if they were whole bacteria. Whole bacteria are not even necessary for full blown sepsis, a high level of LPS will cause sepsis.

Endotoxin, or more accurately termed bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS), is recognized as the most potent microbial mediator implicated in the pathogenesis of sepsis and septic shock.

LINK

Leaky gut has been found in Diabetes, MS, Parkinson's, fatty liver disease, cirrhosis, Chronic kidney disease, and probably many more diseases.

What is more likely, that all of these very different pathologies are somehow causing a leaky gut OR, a leaky gut is causing inflammation that plays a significant, if not decisive role in the pathology of these diseases?

I am convinced it is the latter and there are countless studies over many years, by thousands of researchers, that leaky gut and LPS translocation is not only real but very common.


Jim

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Researchers are not talking about whole bacteria passing through the gut in leaky gut, that would be sepsis. They are talking about endotoxins and bacterial DNA passing through.


This can provoke an immune response, as if they were whole bacteria. Whole bacteria are not even necessary for full blown sepsis, a high level of LPS will cause sepsis.


LINK

Leaky gut has been found in Diabetes, MS, Parkinson's, fatty liver disease, cirrhosis, Chronic kidney disease, and probably many more diseases.

What is more likely, that all of these very different pathologies are somehow causing a leaky gut OR, a leaky gut is causing inflammation that plays a significant, if not decisive role in the pathology of these diseases?

I am convinced it is the latter and there are countless studies over many years, by thousands of researchers, that leaky gut and LPS translocation is not only real but very common.


Jim

I was talking about the confusion here on the forums and also within the natropathic community at the quacking end of the spectrum. You don't have to look very far on the Internet to see a lot misinformation floating about about partly digested food and whole bacteria passing into the bloodstream.

Regarding linking a massive raft of diseases to the so called "leaky gut". I think we have discussed that already regarding our differences of opinion but I think it is worth noting for others that it is best casting a very critical eye over discussion and conclusions and be careful about what emphasis one draws from papers. In particular " more research is needed in this area but it is possible that...." Type statements.

Researchers are often caught in the trap of trying to create a neatly sewn up theory and wildly speculating about the relevance of their so called discovery. Often it is deliberate and fairly easy to spot as a transparent attempt to help secure new funding in a particularly easily cash rich "soft" area of research. You certainly can't rely on abstracts which are sometimes not much more than overinflated advertisements in a lot of cases. I've lost count of the number of papers I've read that promise so much in the abstract and fail to deliver when you read the full paper. You also find there is a lot of jumping on the band wagon when a popular unproven theory is put out there. The best researchers know when to drop a dead duck and not publish. Sadly research funding often puts pressure to get a positive result rather than accept and learn from a "negative" one. I've seen a lot of quite frankly, crap papers on the subject of leaky gut.

 

[62milestogojoe]

My latest venture into biohacking myself will be the herbal route as I have tried many other things, and feel that I may have an underlying infection hiding out somewhere in my body.

I have used Boswellia, Ginger, Turmeric before for Joint pain and they seem to have worked to lower inflammation. I have used Milk Thistle when my liver function seemed to be really awful and that helped too.
And I have tried Ginseng but I am not really sure if that did anything at all.

Now I am looking towards herbs that can heal leaky gut and aid the HPA axis.

But which Herbs have helped you most and in which area? and which ones were a waste of your time?

Hi Chris, I have had great success following this 'biohack'
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...n-order-to-alleviate-severe-ibs-symtoms.2200/