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Western Blot Band 41 Positive - But Not Borrelia

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by bertiedog, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Last year I was tested by Infectolab and got 3 positives on their LTT test but we know that @Jonathan Edwards doesn't think this is a valid test yet. I also tested positive on the Western Blot on Band 41 only. Since then I have learned that this doesn't mean it's borrelia that is a problem and now I have the answer I think.

    Four weeks ago I did a comprehensive 3 day stool analysis through Genova, it was called the G I Effects Stool Test and 2 days ago I got the results. I have a 4+ for Citrobacter freundii but I had the same result in June 2012 when I had the last stool test done. This is despite endless rounds of herbal antibiotics and also a couple of course of Ciproflaxin which the organism is supposed to be senstive to.

    The pathogen can cause upper respiratory infections and probably explains the identical sore throat with flu like symptoms I get on and off. Every time I get this the symptoms are identical. It is considered an opportunistic bacteria and causes problems in people with weak immune systems which I definitely have.

    The interesting thing is that the Wiki article describes it as -

    The Citrobacter species, including Citrobacter freundii, are aerobic gram-negative bacilli. Citrobacter freundii are long rod-shaped bacteria typically 1-5 μm in length [1]. Most C. freundii cells are surrounded by many flagella used to move about, but a few are non-motile. Its habitat includes the environment (soil, water, sewage), food, and the intestinal tracts of animals and humans [1]. It belongs to the family of Enterobacteriaceae.

    So there I think is the explanation for my positive Band 41 but it's nothing to do with borrelia and to my mind throws in doubt the LTT test.

    Pam
     
  2. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    Were you positive for band 41 IgG or IgM? According to this, some people just happen to produce anti-p41 IgM antibodies even if they likely haven't been exposed to Borrelia (no symptoms or history of exposure and no IgG for the same band.)
     
  3. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    It could explain the band 41 result, but it doesn´t explain the Infectolab result. And the fact that it is an opportunistic pathogen suggests that it wasn´t what made you ill in the first place. So I would continue trying to work out what triggered your illness. Have you been tested for any other TBIs?
     
  4. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Halycon, band 41 is non-specific, so antibodies to many bacteria (such as Citrobacter and Yersinia) may produce a positive result.
     
  5. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I was positive for band 41 IgG, but negative on all other Lyme and TBI tests (including the LTT), so it´s more likely that antibodies to Yersinia (which I was positive for on both Western Blot and LTT) were responsible for the result.
     
    worrymama likes this.
  6. Research 1st

    Research 1st Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.

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    Hi Bertiedog.

    I wanted to reply, to try and give you so hope. The good news is, It doesn't matter what one doctor thinks about a tests usefulness ,especially one who isn't a Lyme specialist.

    Although not commonly known, CDC agree Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis, like ME CFS. What this means is a person don't even need a positive Borrelia test to obtain a Lyme disease diagnosis, although tests are of course helpful.

    Some things to consider:

    *The LTT test is potentially diagnostic for Borrelia in Germany, and thus is useful for clinicians who are familiar with it.. In Germany, with the LTT testing positive, this means that you can be treated for Lyme disease, using the LTT test as a contributing evidence base in clinical practice. In other words, it is a 'tool' (one of many) that give the physician more confidence a patient has Lyme, rather than other reasons, such as 'CFS'.

    *Dr Armin Schwarzbach (MD, Phd) uses the LTT test (amongst others), and his expertise in Lyme helped develop the EU funded Hilensys project. So he knows what he's talking about or the Hilensys project wouldn't of allowed him to contribute.

    http://cordis.europa.eu/result/rcn/58145_en.html
    http://www.hilysens.eu/the_project

    *Chronic Lyme isn't one disease, it's multiple diseases, from the co-infections.

    In conclusion, I highly recommend this excellent video presentation on Lyme below, by Dr Horowitz (USA) which is explained in a clear cut manner, that is a 'review' of screening process, including Co-Infections of Borrelia..




    All the best and I hope you find out what is wrong with you and science can progress to allow that.
     
    Theodore, merylg, GalaxiiGrl and 3 others like this.
  7. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Thanks @halcyon it was IgG positive on the Western Blot only, igM was negative.

    Pam
     
  8. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I have done about 15 months on a modified Cowdon protocol and I think my immune system is slightly stronger than previously but I still tend to pick up these throat viruses very easily and feel terrible whilst I have them. Plus I still get adrenal crashes after unavoidable periods of great stress which luckily don't happen too often. My salt balance goes and I don't realise what is going on until it gets extreme and then I need about 3 days on a low dose of fludrocortisone to put things right (I have adrenal insufficiency but don't usually need fludro).

    The gut thing has been going on for a very long time. On this GI effects stool test I didn't have any lactobacillus showing at all despite taking endless probiotics for years. It might be because I had to have 2 lots of antibiotics in the last 6 months, one for an infected cut and then about 2 months ago for a throat infection.

    I think its also possible I have SIBO so I have just started Rimfaximin for 10 days plus guar gum to try and see if things settle down. After that I will see how I feel and then go and see somebody who will treat me for the Citrobacter, well at least give it a try because everything I have taken as obviously failed and its been a tremendous variety of herbs and also a couple of course of ciproflaxin.

    It's very frustrating because I am really careful with my diet and never eat sugar, bread, rice, white potatoes but lots of vegetables, fish, meat plus nuts and seeds.

    I am steroid dependent but only take what a normal person would make regarding cortisol so that might not be helping the immune system either but I know I can never come off the Prednisolone because of 2 adrenal crisis when I did come off for a trial period about 10 years ago.

    Thanks for the comments, I do appreciate it. I still am sitting on the fence a bit regarding the LTT test if I am honest!

    Pam
     
  9. valentinelynx

    valentinelynx Senior Member

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    I thought that band 41 is specific to spirochete flagellae only, not any kind of bacterial flagellae. I've found information on this hard to dig up. Any microbiologists around to help shed light on this matter?
     
  10. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I don´t think so, since Yersinia and Borrelia are believed to be cross-reactive for this band:

    http://cvi.asm.org/content/12/11/1269.full

    The cross-reactivity of the Yersinia Western blot assay with B. burgdorferi occurred most frequently with the Yersinia YopD antigen. All samples observed to have cross-reactivity between B. burgdorferi and Yersinia except one Yersinia IgM positive-sample showed cross-reactivity with the YopD antigen of the Western blot assay. Five samples observed to have cross-reactivity between Yersinia and B. burgdorferi were retested for antibodies against B. burgdorferi by a Western blot method (MarDx Diagnostics) to identify the specific B.burgdorferi- positive antigens. All five samples were positive for IgG antibodies against the 41-kDa flagellar (Fla) protein and for IgG and IgM antibodies against the 23-kDa outer surface protein C (OspC) of B. burgdorferi (Table 4).


    So people who were positive for Borrelia-specific band 23, and non-specific 41, were also positive for Yersinia YopD. Of course, these people may have also had a Yersinia infection This is where it gets very confusing. Yop D is not a flagellum. So it seems possible that some people with non-flagellum possessing bacterial infections may also test positive for band 41.
     
  11. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    http://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(14)62113-3/fulltext

    In this study, 90% of the Lyme group had antibodies to Yop D. It seems unlikely that all of them had had a Yersinia infection, but not impossible. The much lower positivity rate for the other Yops suggests that it is more likely that some of them had had Yersinia.

    This passage was particularly interesting:

    The highest percentage of cross-reaction was against YopD, which is in accordance with the results of Rawlins et al. [13x13Rawlins, ML, Gerstner, C, Hill, HR, and Litwin, CM. Evaluation of a western blot method for the detection of Yersinia antibodies: evidence of serological cross-reactivity between Yersinia outer membrane proteins and Borrelia burgdorferi. Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 2005; 12: 1269–1274

    PubMedSee all References13]. The cross-reactivity can be explained by the homology between the human thyroid-stimulating hormone receptor, four Yops and five B. burgdorferi proteins [14x14Benvenga, S, Guarneri, F, Vaccaro, M, Santarpia, L, and Trimarchi, F. Homologies between proteins of Borrelia burgdorferi and thyroid autoantigens. Thyroid. 2004; 14: 964–966
    .

    The confusing thing here is that whilst band 41 was one of the Bb proteins cross-reactive to the human thyroid-stimulating hormone receptor, Yop D wasn´t one of the Yersinia proteins cross-reactive to the same.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
    Valentijn likes this.
  12. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    EBV can light up band 41.
     
  13. Georgelis

    Georgelis

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    Hi, I've just done the Borrelia IgG Western Blot test and also only got a positive result (+) for the p41 antigen (41 kDa). The information in the above thread about cross-reactivity has been very useful. One other thing that I found from a google search is that HHV6 also has a 41 kDa antigen (apparently I'm not allowed to post links as I'm a new member). So does that mean HHV6 could be the cause of this positive result? Many thanks for any advice.
     
  14. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    I test positive for band 41 every time now as well and also have C freundii. I took 3 days of rifaximin for it but haven't been tested since so i have no idea if it helped or not. I too, also get frequent sinus and upper respiratory infections.
    Ive always tested negative for lyme (band 41 only) but recently got a positive for bartonella, however im still suspicious about that band 41 as well...
     
  15. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    This is what I've heard as well. Ive even been told there are only 3 or 4 spirochites that can pop for band 41, one of course being borrelia
     
    Mel9 likes this.
  16. valentinelynx

    valentinelynx Senior Member

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    Well, that's all perfectly unclear. Seems to me the jury is still out on what Band 41 indicates. Thank you all for your input.
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  17. Mel9

    Mel9 Senior Member

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    Evidence for this staement please?
     
  18. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Google it yourself!
     
  19. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Ah, I see you may be asking for evidence that Yersinia and Citrobacter in particular can cause p41 reactivity. Here is the evidence for Yersinia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18844689

    I am not sure that I had evidence for the Citrobacter claim, so I will retract it.
     
  20. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I see I have already posted the study earlier in this thread - I don´t have any further evidence, sorry.
     

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