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Wessely honoured with a knighthood for his work for GWS and ME

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Countrygirl, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. duckndive

    duckndive

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    It doesn't matter what your postman thinks about doing his job. It's what you and others think and if you think he's worthy of an honour, then you can nominate him. Professor Sir Simon Wessely didn't nominate himself, others did
    because they thought he deserved an honour. There are hundreds and hundreds of 'ordinary' people in the honours list - they got there because someone just like you put pen to paper and nomnated them.
     
  2. Bob

    Bob

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    Ah, it seems that the knighthood may have been premature, because it seems that he is wrong (as usual) about GWS if this very interesting blog about new discoveries re causes of GWS is correct:

    The Reno Dispatch
    BOMBSHELL EXCLUSIVE: SCIENTISTS LINK GULF WAR ILLNESS TO CHEMICALS FROM U.S. BOMBINGS
    THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2012
    http://therenodispatch.blogspot.ie/2012/12/bombshell-exclusive-scientists-link_13.html

    (The comments, after the blog, are very interesting and well worth a read as well.)
     
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Just a comment on radioactive agents. I am not sure about depleted uranium being more chemically toxic than radioactively toxic, but it could be right. Plutonium is the same, its highly poisonous. In chem labs radioactive elements like this that we were using were encased in solid materials. The radiation was not the main threat, even though we had to use tongs to move such materials.
     
  4. Wildcat

    Wildcat Senior Member

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    http://therenodispatch.blogspot.ie/2012/12/bombshell-exclusive-scientists-link_13.html

    …‘The second study, led by Dr. Robert Haley, chief of epidemiology at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, analyzed data from an epidemiologic study of 8,020 randomly selected Gulf War-era veterans. Haley concluded that hearing a nerve gas alarm was strongly associated with the likelihood of developing the chronic brain symptoms known as Gulf War Illness.


    In addition, Haley concluded, the more frequently nerve gas alarms were heard by our troops, "the greater the chances of coming down with Gulf War illness later. This dose-related risk was extremely steep and highly significant given the large size of this statistically valid sample of veterans." …..




    ################################################################




    .


    Professor Robert Haley gave evidence to the 2004 UK Independent Gulf War Illness Inquiry on Tuesday 3rd August 2004. the Transcript is here




    http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/


    http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/admin/ManagedFiles/3/Times%20&%20Witnesses%203rd%20August%202004.doc


    Professor Robert Haley: …..“Studies using nonspecific definitions of Gulf War neurological syndrome are biased toward finding negative results. Early in the history of Gulf War illness research, around 1993, a decision was made in the government to the effect that “there is no Gulf War syndrome,” and this led to pressure on researchers who wanted government funding not to use a case definition of the illness in their research. Without at least a provisional case definition, however, it is virtually impossible to design studies that will elucidate the nature of the illness, or illnesses, and connect them with causes. This unfortunate government decision is arguably the main reason for the delay in progress in this research field. Finally, when a few studies bucked the policy and used provisional case definitions successfully to make promising discoveries, research groups that had performed expensive population surveys without a case definition in mind attempted either to prove that no case definition was possible or to concoct case definitions after the fact from data collected earlier, even when the collected data were insufficient for defining a case definition.


    The most important example of the unproductive use of a nonspecific case definition concocted after the fact was the series of studies from the Kings College London group. In place of a case definition describing the disease that veterans were complaining of, they defined Gulf War illness as having a score of greater than 72.2 on the SF-36 questionnaire, which measures functional impairment regardless of the cause. This case definition essentially counted veterans as having Gulf War illness if they had any condition that caused them to feel bad. Consequently, many veterans with diseases other than Gulf War neurological syndrome that made them feel bad were mistakenly counted as cases, and conversely, many with typical symptoms of Gulf War neurological syndrome but who were not very ill with it were not counted as cases. This severe degree of bidirectional misclassification has caused all studies from the Kings College London group to reach spuriously negative conclusions.” ……


    .
     
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  5. Wildcat

    Wildcat Senior Member

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    .

    Sounds strangely familiar - deja vu...... as with the unproductive use of a non-specific case definition favoured by the Kings College Hospital CFS centre (where Prof Wessely is now listed as consultant psychiatrist though i'm sure he used to be its director).... ie the non specific CFS Oxford Criteria.... the PACE Trial case definition........and the UK CFS clinics' non specific CASE definitions ....

    .
     
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  6. Ember

    Ember Senior Member

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    Notice too how Professors Simon Wessely and Christopher Dandeker conclude the first section of “King’s Centre for Military Health Research: A fifteen year report--What has been achieved by fifteen years of research into the health of the UK Armed Forces?” (September 2010):
    http://www.kcl.ac.uk/kcmhr/publications/15YearReportfinal.pdf
     
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  7. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    Alex
    oh hell yeah, rationality and poltiics are like, vinegar and bicarbonate :p

    Wessely winning a Knighthood: What do folk expect? Been warning folk for years the hole the UK's system was sliding into....
    "Democracy"? My hairy ARSEHOLE it is!
    Wessely should have won the "W***er of the Millenium" award, and a one-way, all expenses-paid ticket to Broadmoor, courtesy of Her Majesty :p
    (And in light of the GWS item, hell yeah, long since time we had a CRIMINAL investigation ino this horror, all the political ones have been utter whitewashes)

    And as I've said, notice how recently, the expose' and bruhaha, that senior Conservative politicians were/are child abusers, has *DISAPPEARED* off the radar, just...gone away. Amazing that, eh?
    Which shows the UK's system's rotten as hell. I may dig hard at the USA (for certain reasons) but USA has vastly more accountability and rule of law in many ways than UK.
    UK is "Democracy by CONSENT" *not* Rule of Law. The sons of bitches have been making more and more "wiggle room" for them to do crap for decades, same in USA (but as noted the hard coded laws there make it more difficult for them, versus more power/lack of painful experience of results USA has though. So both our nations are in deep deep poo)
    UK's Constituion and Bill of Rights literally are not worth the parchment they are written on and why the Conservatives are fighting against the EU's Human Right's Laws which are the *only* hard coded, genuine, non-wiggle roomed limits on our "Imperial Masters".

    Everyone knows that for donkeys years, knighthoods and other honours were given for the same reason they have for centuries:
    • Keeping your big fat mouth SHUT
    • For doing the dirty work the Crown doesn't want folk to know about
    • For nice big fat bribes/nepotism etc
    • and sometimes, for the "feel good factor" of someone who genuinely deserves recognition (so at least the "Plebs" feel happy)
     
  8. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    Alex
    oh
    the USA also uses Depleted Uranium in their tanks' ARMOUR (later models certianly, not sure if used in Gulf War 1?)
    to put it midly, it's insanely stupid to do such a thing!!
    Yay, living in a vehicle encased in one of the world's most toxic metals, radioactive and what happens ot it? it gets blown up...
    even if not penetrated fully, damage, especially by the massive but crude bombs insurgents use (like half a dozen 155mm shells going off or the like), or the newer and incredibly powerful roadside "penetration" bombs the Iranans developed and trained hezbollah, Iraqi's etc in
    well, you're gonna have DU everywhere.

    IVI
    DU is an incredibly dangerous form of radioactive material, because it is an ALPHA emitter that is highly likely to be end up in DNA
    because, iirc, it's chemical makeup being misread by the body as another element, and thus, ends up in DNA/protein more than it should..and while it's radioactivity is low, when actually part of/attached to DNA chains, well, it's like having a shotgun in there. For decency's sake, I'm not gonna post the pics of the deformed Iraqi children but hey..there's plenty of them
    and it is toxic, highly reactive (so forms salts etc), it is pyrophoric (it burns fiercely when in fine form or heated ie when it is cut or strikes an object)
    the combination of all is to be extremely toxic in effect, in the "real world".

    Do you really think those bastards would tell us the truth, hm? their early sutdies are obviously LIES or hugely manipulated. US Navy ended up refusing to use the damn stuff
    USA and Russia have around 500,000 tons EACH of Depleted Uranium, left over from the insane nuclear "gonad contest" we call "The Cold War", so they are desperate to get rid of it, so, they drop it all over "foreigners" they don't care about!
    What makes it even worse is the lunatics store most of it in the form of Uranium hexaflouride, probably the most horrendous substance ever created....ye gods! :(
     
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  9. Ember

    Ember Senior Member

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    It sounds as though the King's College London group didn't study GWS at all. Instead they justify taking a large random sample of UK Gulf veterans:
    That's why the talk about "Gulf War Illnesses" or the "Gulf War health effect" while misleadingly claiming, "For better or worse, 'Gulf War Syndrome' is going to remain the popular term."
     
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  10. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    It looks like the sample was picked appropriately given the purpose of the study. Since i does cut across all Arm Forces personnel who served in the gulf war, you would be able to gain lots of information, such as who gets GWS, in what location, what circumstances, as well as other factors that might be involved in GWS. This would be especially valuable information for limiting these factors and reduce exposure to situations that may contribute to GWS.

    I need to get mote information before commenting. about other aspects of the study design

    Barb C.:>)
     
  11. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    The article in the Independent did no such thing. It said and I quote:

    This was not stalking and intimidation by 'legitimate' or 'polite' challengers because such people (presumably) would not employ stalking and intimidation. Absolutely incredible how such content can be spun to suit one's ruddy agenda. Stunning. Unless you consider yourself to be a member of or indeed an actual 'fanatical lobby group' of course.

    Indeed, and not that it's particularly relevant to the point, but 'fanatical lobby group's were not the source of the concern expressed by Wessely and others in August last year. It was (from memory) more about individuals who went beyond reasonable behaviour - so I would conclude that the phrase comes from the Journalist. But I could be wrong - it doesn't detract from the point.

    The actual letter:

    Now, you tell me. Is the way in which Margaret has taken her quotes and employed them in that sentence - out of context? Erroneous? Or what?

    It is perhaps (perhaps mind), worth bearing in mind that we already know this letter was edited. Indeed the authors had expected a correction to be published - but it didn't happen. Not that it's entirely relevant of course.

    I can't comment on the Gulf War Syndrome. I have no knowledge of it. I presume those that are commenting, do. Personally, I fail to see any relevance between ME and GWS other than (I presume) the similarity in treatment protocols - employed differently.

    I guess this might be where the cross-over occurs. Presumably (I have never really looked) GWS is treated with some form of CBT intervention and folk see that (and Wessely's involvement of course) as some sort of parallel to ME?

    Ah well.
     
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  12. Ember

    Ember Senior Member

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    Professors Wessely and Dandeker conclude as they began: “The problem that affected Gulf War veterans was not a new syndrome – the symptoms they complain of were not new to medicine:”
     
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  13. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I don't see where this statement is problematic nor how it relates to me/cfs unless you are talking about treatment approach. In the states the availability of mental health services for returning vets from he current war(s) is abysmal.

    Could he have possibly been referring to PTSD / shell shock, etc. which happened in other wars and the word GWS is just a different word for the previous terms I mentioned.? I don't know but it sounds plausible..
     
  14. Ember

    Ember Senior Member

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    Professors Wessely and Dandeker pretend to have studied an illness that they neither defined nor studied. First they justify not studying it by claiming that it doesn't exist, and then they conclude that statistically it doesn't exist.

    The authors assert, however, that "there is still a need to try and understand the causes of disability and disadvantage in Gulf veterans:"
    Blaming the victims for their role in maintaining an ill-defined condition seems an all-too-familiar way to undermine disability claims. Perhaps that is the purpose of the study and the nature of the exceptional achievement or service.
     
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  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    From what I've glanced at thus far, Wessely is applying the same theories to GWS which he applies to ME. So unless something radically changes in his post-2001 work, it'll be a case of somatization/deconditioning where pretty much everyone has mental illness and is only cured by CBT/GET.

    And GWS basically involves the same symptoms as ME. Especially if you're a psychiatrist who believes all medically unexplained symptoms are essentially part of the same illness.
     
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  16. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    I would not want to pretend or be seen to say that GWS was anything like ME even in terms of any 'advocacy'. It would not be fair to the vets for me to do so I don't believe.

    Do you really want to let Veterans hear that the troubles you feel we are facing as patients with this diagnosis are the same as those that they themselves face?

    You really think you are qualified to do so? Personally I think it would be disrespectful to do so but I'd like to hear from some Advocates for Veterans with GWS and the Veterans themselves.

    I don't know what qualifications Margaret Williams holds, I don't know who she is other than the mouthpiece (apparently) for Professor Hooper.

    It seems to me that the two conditions are being paralleled simply because of this long-fought-notion that both are 'organic' whatever the hell that means - but are being downtrodden in some way.

    What does 'treatment' actually mean? Is counselling a treatment, a therapy, a cure? Are drugs? Are any more or less appealing or important than the other?

    If a person with HIV is on a cocktail of drugs including anti-retrovirals - is this treatment also a cure? I would say that it isn't. It prevents HIV from becoming AIDS but it doesn't always prevent death.

    Does a person with HIV and on the cocktail or drugs still require (if they can get it) counselling, and management strategies, counselling attempts to help them learn to live with HIV?

    I would say that they do. At least it should be made as available should they want it. Are the drugs and the counselling, cures? NO.

    When you have a condition for which there are no drugs - what do you do? Drugs for symptom management and counselling therapy for help in learning to live with the condition and to make the most of your life - whatever that may now be.

    I was going to do a thread about 'treatment', 'therapy', and 'cure'. May still do so. Kinda OT I suppose. But that's what it boils down to I think. Our conception of what each brings to the debate. The validation of our illness.

    Back to GWS. I do not think it is prudent to compare ME to GWS in any way, shape or form. But for those who have far more knowledge than me - they may feel able and willing to do so.

    I'd like to hear from some Veterans. I'd like to hear from those who have been helped - or not helped - by Wessely's involvement; from the CBT I presume has been deployed; and not from 'advocates' whose hostility towards the man in question has been criticised of late. If it's all the same to anyone...
     
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  17. Bob

    Bob

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    Because GWS is not a mental health problem, any more than ME is. But reading the above info, Wessely's approach to GWS seems to be exactly the same as towards CFS: Ignore the real well-defined health problem that is being complained about; conflate a load of disparate and irrelevant (to GWS & CFS) health issues and lump them under same heading as the actual well-defined health problem; then attempt to redefine the original problem as being something it isn't; and then dismiss the actual problem saying that you don't recognise it because your patients do not have the illness that is being complained about.

    Read the thread, Barb, including the link that I provided.

    Some of the info in this thread is very illuminating, and deeply troubling and depressing.
    This thread really does shine a bright illuminating light on Wessely and his methods.
    It's deeply depressing.
    At least the problem has been spotted by at least one academic, in relation to GWS.

    I don't follow GWS closely, and I'm not certain about this, but I think that some authorities in the USA might be taking GWS seriously, and there might be research funds available. Again, I'm not certain about this, but I think that the US government now recognises GWS, and compensates for it, but I might be wrong. I hope it is taken seriously, and if it is, this will hopefully mean that Wessely and co, will not get too much of a foothold in the research into GWS. Not in US academia anyway. If anyone is able to shed any light on the facts, I'd be grateful. I only picks little bits up about GWS here and there.
     
  18. Marco

    Marco Old blackguard

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    You may not but others engaged in the field (no pun intended) do :

    http://precedings.nature.com/documents/6847/version/1

    Full text freely available (inc discussion of DU munitions)
     
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  19. Wildcat

    Wildcat Senior Member

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    two sources of sir prof Wessely speaking about GWS and his own studies at King's are his evidence to the Lloyd inquiry 2004 - link
    Tuesday 10 August 2004, Lloyd GWI Inquiry

    http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/
    http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/admin/ManagedFiles/2/GWI1008%2000.doc

    .

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    .... And prof sir Wessely's Gresham College (London) lecture on GWS entitled 'Something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue', 2006 i think. the transcript may still be on the gresham college site. the lecture was filmed. the video includes the q&a session at the end, which is not included in the transcript.


    .
     
  20. Bob

    Bob

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    ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

    A lot of people have provided a lot of evidence in this thread, which already address these issues, in a very persuasive way, IMO.

    Please take a bit of time to read the thread.

    E.G., to answer one of your points:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-work-for-gws-and-me.21116/page-3#post-321327

    E.G., read the comments under the blog linked to in the following post, to find out more about GWS patient opinions:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-work-for-gws-and-me.21116/page-3#post-321271
     
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