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Were the proteins found in spinal fluid related to viruses or bacteria ?

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by xchocoholic, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi there ...

    http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=15959

    Do we know what types of proteins were found ? I was thinking that they may have just found the viral and/or bacterial proteins that those of us with Lyme and CFS have. MEANING .. that our bodies are just really good hosts for these. There's a party going on inside of us ... :eek:

    This link explains that there are millions of types of viruses so knowing what to treat could be a problem. And could explain why some people have a positive reaction to antivirals. I don't know but I suspect that their recovery is short lived if that person is still feeding viruses .. or missing whatever is needed to keep that virus from replicating. The Lysine / arginine connection to Herpes comes to mind ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus

    This explains what bacteria are ... same goes for why some people "recover" using the candida diet. Again, you can starve these and kill them off but if you feed these, they will simply regrow ... Bacteria if well fed, will duplicate in quantity every 15 minutes.

    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-bacterial-protein.htm

    We know that Herpes will flare if we don't take enough Lysine and are eating too much arginine. And we know that candida will flare if we're low on good bacteria and eat too many carbs ...

    Recently they published a study on how taking zinc at the onset of a cold really does help ...

    http://news.health.com/2011/02/15/zinc-colds/

    This study on spinal fluid was only done on those with either Lyme or CFS, I wonder how many other people with chronic illnesses have these ? A recent study on Alzheimer's patients showed that they had Herpes in their brains.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-da...heimers-herpes-could-be-a-cause_b_814047.html

    So what nutrients or enzymes are we missing to keep viruses and bacteria under control ? And what are we doing to keep these bacteria alive or activate those viruses ?

    hmmmm ... Ideas ? ... x
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi xchocoholic, you raise some interesting issues. I am not aware that we understand the proteins found. Once they are all sequenced, we may be able to determine the source. Some are probably bacteria or viral, some from the patient. Each pathogen or disease tends to elicit a range of proteins in the host, which can tell us a lot about the immune response. Bye, Alex
  3. glenp

    glenp "and this too shall pass"

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    This study was published in 2005


    BMC Neurol. 2005 Dec 1;5:22.

    A Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - related proteome in human cerebrospinal fluid.
    Baraniuk JN, Casado B, Maibach H, Clauw DJ, Pannell LK, Hess S S.

    Georgetown University Proteomics Laboratory, Division of Rheumatology, Immunology & Allergy, Room B-105, Lower Level Kober-Cogan Building, Georgetown University, Washington, DC 20007-2197, USA. baraniuj@georgetown.edu


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16321154?dopt=Abstract

    This pilot study detected an identical set of central nervous system, innate immune and amyloidogenic proteins in cerebrospinal fluids from two independent cohorts of subjects with overlapping CFS, PGI and fibromyalgia. Although syndrome names and definitions were different, the proteome and presumed pathological mechanism(s) may be shared.
  4. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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  5. katejones

    katejones

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    From what I understood these proteins are part of some innate immune response, and indicate that there is some infection being fought off (or at least attempted to).

    What I don't understand yet is why 700+ proteins were found in healthy people as well??
  6. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Wow ... Great feedback everyone ... I've been googling like crazy to try to understand all of this. ; ) I was only up on the idea that viruses and bacteria were encased in protein not that our bodies created endogenous proteins (those created within our bodies). And I knew this because I'm taking Virastop and candidase which break up protein wall that encases these ...

    Could endogenous proteins be cytokines or antibodies ? I couldn't find that ... Maybe a better question is where exactly do endogenous proteins come from ? Would non essential aminos be considered endogenous proteins because they're created from essential aminos within our bodies ? How about digestive enzymes ?


    This was a great report but clearly over my head at this point ... I'm interested in the fact that they're finding these in PGI and CFS patients. I wonder if these proteins have anything to do with the fact that we're the ones who's immune systems have crashed ... Which is why chronic Lyme sufferers would be in this group too ..

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16321154?dopt=Abstract


    I kills me that the above study is from 2005 ... WHAT is going on here ? (I apologize in advance for using the word "gluten" ... lol ... ) BUT ... When I think about how gluten sensitivity is being handled I can clearly see how ignoring medical research happens. Dr. Hadjivassilou proved back in 2004 (?) that gluten causes gluten ataxia and YET no one wanted to hear it !!! Now this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what researchers have discovered when it comes to all that gluten can do ...

    Time for me to lay down ... thanks again ... great discussion ... x
  7. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    This says that cerebral spinal fluids are evaluated for viruses, bacteria and fungi ...

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003769.htm

  8. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    You lack basic metabolism knowledge. This might be a place to start your search.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolism#Amino_acids_and_proteins
  9. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks lansbergen,

    There's no doubt that I lack a lot of things ... lol ... Those who are up on this, feel free to carry on this discussion while I chew on this ... tc ... x

  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi xchocoholic, maybe I can help clear up some of the background issues. I apologize if I am stating the obvious, but I thought I would briefly address a range of background topics.

    Proteins are long chains of amino acids, sometimes connected to other things such as fats or carbohydrates. The entire body is constructed from proteins and other chemicals. All enzymes are proteins that have a role in making chemical reactions happen.

    Endogenous proteins could be hormones, antibodies, enzymes or structural components. Everybody has lots of these in their spinal fluid. We just have proteins that are not supposed to be there in healthy people. In order to identify which these are, they had to identify the normal proteins for healthy people, and then subtract those from proteins in ME/CFS and chronic Lyme patients, so they could find out what was abnormal. Some of these proteins could be structural components of dying cells, and if they are unique to that cell type they can tell us which cells are dying.

    Please be aware though that some proteins may be missing from us that should be there. I don't recall this issue being addressed, but it will be in time.

    Bye
    Alex
  11. clive powney

    clive powney Senior Member

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    What's the betting that the lyme and CFS proteins are pretty much the same (i.e BBB proteins IgA/IgG/IgM, Myelin proteins IgA/IgG/IgM and Neurofilament IgG/IgM). The differences will just be the lyme bacteria and other co-infections. I had these proteins come up in tests done on me a couple of years ago
  12. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    I believe one of the points made in that study was that the proteins were NOT the same between CFS and Lyme. That is the big news. We have our own disease, which we have known for awhile, but now everyone else knows.
  13. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    I agree Kurt, that really jumped out at me.

    It's a shame that with other things going on these details have been overlooked so far. This is a really important study! A clear distinction, but yet a connection, an overlap, between Lyme and CFS. That's huge!
  14. ahimsa

    ahimsa Senior Member

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    Yes, I agree. The Venn diagram showing the overlap was helpful in showing this. Some proteins in the center were shared by all three groups but there were also three distinct sets of proteins that could distinguish each group (healthy controls, ME/CFS patients, and Lyme patients). I've attached a small version below but a larger version, and tables listing the proteins for each group, are included with the paper at http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0017287 (scroll down)

    diagram.jpg

    This is actually all way over my head :D but I do think I grasp one concept -- this study found distinct sets of proteins and was able to distinguish between these two groups of patients and healthy controls. That seems important to me.
  15. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Thanks ahimsa! What a fascinating diagram!

    There are 1043 proteins found in ME/CFS patients that are not found in healthy controls. Equally interesting, it appears they found 890 proteins in the healthy controls, that they did NOT find in PWCs.

    Of the 1043 "abnormal" proteins found in PWCs, we share 305 (29%) with Lyme, while 738 (71%) are unique to PWCs.

    So, it seems the PWCs were missing 34% of the proteins typically found in the CSF healthy people, while 37% of the proteins they did have are not found in healthy people. Or am I missing some basic biological principle here?

    This is really interesting. Give me a graphical representation over words any time. :D I'm excited to see where this goes. I just wish it didn't all take so long. :headache:
  16. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Just like Jennifer Ashton said on "The Early Show", people with CFS have a "fingerprint" now in relation to biomarkers!
  17. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Check out what some of those extra proteins constituting the potential 'fingerprint for CFS' include! - in the second half of table S4 (PDF unfortunately, can't copy and paste the table) at the bottom of the page, and in table S6 - thanks ahimsa!
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017287

    In addition to the complement system which has been mentioned, very significant with the highest percentage, what else is there in the list? Jumping out for me:

    "Neuroprotective role of THOP1 in Alzheimer's Disease", "Virus entry via Endocytic Pathways", "Atherosclerosis Signalling", "Glutathione Metabolism", "Lysine Degradation", "Cysteine Metabolism", "Role of Macrophages, Fibroblasts and Endothelial Cells in Rheumatoid Arthritis", "Phenylalinine, Tyrosine and Tryptophan Biosynthesis", "Methane Metabolism", "Nitrogen Metabolism", "Phenylalinine Metabolism",...

    These all ring bells as having been mentioned before in other findings...we have the alzheimer's connection there...the glutathione metabolism...lots of metabolism issues...

    And in table S6, again specific to CFS, nitric acid production, and loads of signalling pathways...

    And I just scrolled through the giant table S1, the whole thing...masses and masses of data there...a huge table, but one that jumped out, an old memory, was the old "zinc fingers" - only in CFS, not in controls or Lyme...

    There's just loads here that seems to match up well with what is already known...exciting stuff indeed!
  18. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thanks to you all - very exciting research/findings.

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