International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day Is On May 12, 2018
Thomas Hennessy, Jr., selected May 12th to be our international awareness day back in 1992. He knew that May 12th had also been the birthday of Florence Nightingale. She was the English army nurse who helped to found the Red Cross as well as the first school of nursing in the world.
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Weight Training

Discussion in 'Lifestyle Management' started by Scavo86, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. Knackered

    Knackered Guest

    Did I mention I know a psychologist? A well-known psychologist over here ,
    ........................\...../.....Susan Blackmore got well by basically laying in bed for a year
    .........................)=O=(....I noticed this when I was her personal trainer)
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    australia (brisbane)
    I think some are missing the point with weight training and think that we are training like arnie. This is not the case, its training well within your capacity to maintain what you have muscle and strength wise, its training to an intensity just below what makes you ill. Some are to ill to do anything physical which i understand and have been through periods like this. I think weight training intensity can be more easily controlled and manipulated, eg increase or decrease weight used as well as repetitions. If doing 10 reps with 5lb makes you ill maybe u can do 5 reps with 2lb etc. I dont think its something that going treat cfs specifically, but i do know when im able to, its does help with aches and pains, too much makes it worse, its a juggling act.

    But why i do weight training is because I enjoy it, it was one of my favourite things to do pre cfs. I suppose we have to find an activity that we enjoy and manipulate it to fit in with our condition so we dont 'crash'. If you dont like training as such, i wouldnt advise doing it, its hard to sustain something you dont like. If reading is something you enjoy but cant read a whole chapter, well try a couple of paragraphs at a time then rest etc.

    I think we should still all try to find stuff we can do to enjoy life, without it life is a misery. Weight training doesnt just make me feel physically good but also mentally.

  3. Carter Burke

    Carter Burke Guest

    Knackered, what's with the silly pictures and quotes? You're coming across like an angry 6 year-old.

    The XMRV research shows a correlation between a common viral antibody and CFS. But then they did the same thing with mycoplasma infections and EBV. The original study maintains they've shown a correlation, not a causation.

    It would take a leap of faith to claim that CFS was caused by XMRV. There are hundreds of thousands of people with XMRV who don't have CFS, and there are almost as many who've got better from CFS by addressing things like mercury fillings and food allergies.

    My position is the position all the specialists in the condition tend to take. (People who treat and help thousands of PWCs recover.)

    Yeah, the position people seem to adopt within forum communities seems more focused on seeing the condition as if it's some untreatable, poorly understood disease state.

    I saw the same thing on forums which deal with anxiety disorders. You live in this online community, discussing your panic disorder/GAD/etc. and you notice the other people in the community aren't getting better. (Of course the reason you think this is because everyone who gets better stops posting on these forums. So you get a distorted perspective which can be unhelpful.)

    I didn't drive myself to any sort of breakdown. I just went to work and went out like any other person, just I never took much down time... It was only when living with other people that I noticed how knackered they seemed to be most of the time. (My own theory there.)

    Well it's difficult to diagnose non-invasively, but an MRI can usually show signs of demyelation, which suggests an organic disease.

    The conditions you mention cause measurable physiological changes in the body. It's not always easy to test for them (without opening the body up and taking biopsies) but they're not exactly mysteries.

    The difference with CFS is that there is nothing *fundamentally* different between a PWC and a control. The only differences we've ever found have been different ranges certain parameters fall within - and even then the correlations are typically fairly mild.

    So CFS - at least if you've any interest in the scientific work - presents more as a state of impaired general health/functioning than a 'disease'. (Obviously the term disease can be used rather loosely.)

    I see this, "Ah, but we've got ME, not CFS, which is incurable!" on blogs all the time.

    It's a meaningless distinction which has no grounding in science and no support from anyone working in the field that I'm aware of. CFS can present as anything from very mild symptoms caused by full-time work and an active lifestyle, to people who are unable to chew food or raise their heads...

    You don't need to invent more 'diseases' to explain differences in severity.

    My current specialist, and other specialists I've dealt with, treat thousands of people with this condition, at all conceivable degrees of severity. Recovery is *normal*. It's what you expect to happen when you make the necessary lifestyle adjustments. Even the very worst cases can make gradual improvements, and many people recover 100% from severe disability.

    There's a sample bias in communities focused on the condition which paints a very false picture. I hate to be blunt, but we get ourselves ill (even conventional medicine admits 95% of illness is avoidable - most can be traced back to stress) and our attitudes, beliefs, approaches, etc. are generally what keep us ill.

    I only started getting better when I listened to someone who knew more about the condition than I did. (And who didn't *have* it, obviously.) You going to go take investment advice from people on a forum for the bankrupt?

    I really don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I believe in taking full responsibility for your health, and yes, you do come across VERY Type A (a Type B person wouldn't care whether I agree with them or not).
  4. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

    The other side.

    I thought Knackered's pics were a quite restrained and entertaining way to express his views - and appreciate the effort it must have taken to make or dig out the template - even if I am in the firing line - as I've said before I understand his position - I know he's wrong as far as I am concerned but it's obvious why he thinks as he does

    you keep refering to "all" and "most people" to back up your view that "CFS" is simply a lifestyle complaint - in doing so you ignoring current worldwide thinking and research - the only "all" and "most people" who think as you do are the psych crowd

    I had come to the same conclusion as flex a while ago but as a newcomer it wasnt my place to say so - you clearly dont have the same desease, condition or syndrome (take your choice) as I do (Knackered's opinion not withstanding lol) - however thats a good thing - for you

    of course it's remotely possible that your still in denial - that you wont see your condition for what it is - that your still of the mindset where if you do x, y and z to fix things then it's possible to "fix" yourself - I was there several years ago - occasionally still am - whole sections of this board are dedicated to that mindset - people still hope - I dont - I've been there, tried that, got not just the T-shirt but the whole clothes shop - it's not possible to "fix" M.E. that way - if it was we would know it by now as EVERYONE tries it (the very best you can hope for that way is to manage symptoms) - but I'm not a believer - as I keep saying I wish you were right - it would be nice - but your not right as far as people with M.E. are concerned - your so wrong - insultingly so

    best wishes with your continuied recovery

    sorry if I've gone too far - it's not my intention to offend
  5. flex


    London area

    I see you have been visiting forums on anxiety disorder, further confirmation to me that you are addressing the wrong people here. Please go away and study some of the 5000 worldwide papers which show and explain distinct bio markers for ME. As far as MRIs for MS they are also able to pick up large amounts of CNS punctuate damage in ME patients when doctors bother to order them and use a high enough magnet field.

    It was you who raised the issues of the absence of a diagnostic blood test which negates ME as a real disease not me. I just pointed out the facts about diagnostic markers being different in many diseases including ME. You chose to ignore these issues. Thank you for your virtual diagnosis of me as a Type A personality, its amazing what can be done online nowadays. So if I was a type B personality I wouldn't care if you disagreed with me? What a load of typical manipulative psycho babble nonsense. So types A get CFS and type B suck up BS. DOH .... that is really scientific!

    Let me get this straight, are you saying you where ill and you are not now? In which case that would open up a separate discussion. If you are indeed not suffering from a disease but are still ill even with your recovery philosophy I know an excellent professor who could help you - his name is Simon Wessely. Would you like his contact details?

    My type A personality response to you is - You are very wide of the mark and have little understanding of ME.
    My type B personality response to you is - bla bla bla

    best wishes with your continued visiting of anxiety forums.
  6. Carter Burke

    Carter Burke Guest


    You're not quite getting my position. A syndrome can be any self-perpetuating state, or vicious circle, such as cell mitochondria slowing down -> increased free radical production -> further cell damage causing cells to slow down further. (You can find many more in CFS.)

    I'm not in the psyche crowd - although mental attitude has been shown as one of the four or five MOST significant factors in recovery for PWCs (and MANY other illnesses) - I'm in the mitochondria crowd. I think of the condition at the cell-level, where it's not a disease, it's a more an impaired state of general function, which may aggravate or predispose various secondary conditions - (quite down to earth things: nutritional deficiencies, candida, etc.).

    Re: supplements... Worth noting, I following VERY strict pacing, cut out all major allergens/food problems, took the full range of mitochondrial and general nutritional supplements, and Rich Van K's methylation protocol, for a year before I *noticed* any real improvement... The next year was when things started to take off...

    I think recovery first involves a fairly lengthy stabilisation process... Then a gradual improvement... I ONLY stuck with the supplements and protocols I was on because I trusted my specialist, who had had good results with countless other people on this same protocol, and who told me early on that it would often take a 12 months before you'd start to see real benefits.

    My strongest recommendation to ANYONE with CFS is get yourself a good specialist - I only had to order a blood test, I never paid anything more - and just do what they tell you to, to the letter! Don't trust yourself to get yourself out of it - it's very hard to get a clear perspective on your own problems.


    You do strike me as very Type A. There's a high-stress state which comes across very clearly through your writing. You're typical of people I meet with the condition. You very much remind me of how I was. I'll respond to you as long as I think I might be able to provide useful information, but I don't expect everyone in the world to agree with me (any more).

    Bio-markers are what I already described when I said we tend to fall within different parameters, when looking for specific things in urine, blood, biopsy. But none of these ranges actually put us into any defined "disease" state. e.g. The normal range of a particular marker might be 1.00-3.00, where a PWC might score 0.97.

    Markers usually resolve to normal ranges as patients recover.

    Anxiety's a common symptom when CFS is "active", not quite sure what you're getting at there, but it was one of the first to resolve once I got on a good treatment protocol. (Thanks for the concern! :/)

    I had a pretty bad case of CFS - diagnosed formerly with mitochondrial analysis. I was one rung off bed-bound, and had this for 6 years with gradual onset. My bio-markers put me around 20% of the energy and energy recycling capacity of a normal person in some aspects... I've known worse cases - who couldn't walk across a room - but the fact we're all here typing and responding means we're not in that category.

    I decided my own approach to the illness hadn't helped, and got with a specialist, and have roughly tripled my work capacity (that is, I'm using about 3x as much energy in an average day as I was prior to treatment) and reduced my symptoms by about the same degree. So in two years I've gone from what I'd call a disabled state to a state where I can function quite normally if I'm out the house for 4-5 hours.

    I don't expect to ever "not have" CFS, because I don't believe it's anything more than a general state of cellular health... I think if I stick with the protocol I'm on now, my general health will continue to improve at a steady rate, and while I don't think anyone on the planet is 100% well, there'll come a point where I'm, to all intents and purposes, on exactly the same footing as everyone else.

    My case is perfectly normal of moderate-severe PWCs who seek treatment and stick with it. It doesn't need downplaying or blowing out of proportion. I had to commit to a protocol to get well; for plenty of people it just happens naturally.
  7. Knackered

    Knackered Guest

    Why are you still here if you're fine?

    I'd be out with my mates.
  8. Athene


    Oh, I've missed some lively debate here!!!!

    First of all, Knackered, those little pictures made me nealy wee myself laughing! Cheeky yet hilarious.

    Second, Carter, I honestly don't think you and I have got the same thing wrong with us. When you've got ME (yes I can call it ME not CFS if I want to, that's not up to you) you just KNOW it's got a physical cause. Like when you have cold, you honestly just KNOW all that snot is not merely a result of your anxious type A personality or whatever flowing out of you.

    I don't want to belittle the suffering of people who have psychological or psychiatric disorders. Depression, for example, is a truly terrible illness which takes many lives and destroys many others. It's just that I get very irritated with people who try to insist that MY illness is a psychological one, because I know it isn't.

    And so does my doctor, KDM, by the way. You may be unaware but nowadays there are biomarkers accepted as diagnostic tools for ME/CFS by all the medical profesionals in the field who have studied them with due attention and who have a track record of successfully treating sufferers of this illness. He is the one who measured my blood oxygen saturation at 80 which is severely hypoxic. He is the one who did an ultrasound of my prolapsed heart valve and reviewed the ECGs of my ventricular arrhythmia. He's the one who found my RnaseL cleavage excessively high, my cortisone level below 4, my natural killer cells at half the miminum in a healthy person and my blood full of antibodies to my own body tissues, my urine excreting over 80 times the WHO "safe upper limit" of mercury and 20 times the safe limit of lead and so on.

    If all these abnormal results were caused by a psychological condition, then my supernatural powers of mind over matter would be so amazingly influential you can take it from me, I would be using them to manipulate the stock markets amd making myself very rich, not tweaking the outcomes of my own blood tests.

    I did have a psychological illness once. When I was a kid I used to vomit spectacularly every morning. My parents insisted on taking me to several doctors. My teacher was bullying me and I was terrified of going to school - that was why I puked. I knew all along there was no physical cause and I did tell my parents that many times. So I have no problem admitting an illness of mine is psychological when that is the case.

    It's just that, with CFS, unfortunately for me it is not the case.
  9. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

    The other side.

    He's not sayign he's fine - he's upto 2-3000 steps a day (if memory serves me) but can drive for several hours a day - I feel much the same about that as you do about me lifting lol

    He's sayign he has a protocol that works for him and shoudl work for everyone else - but IMO based on what he's said (how he's described his 'syndrome') it's not likely he has M.E. or even CFS - he may have had/have CF but as we all all know.......IMO a some of what he says is perfectly reasonable advice for symptom management (at least a lot of people with M.E. are trying similar stuff with some success) - if expensive and impratical in the UK - where our specialist is Wessley and a lot of us are on a very low income

    but IMO none of what he says is curative - not an issue from his point of view as there is nothign to cure - it's all down to bad habits and lifestyle choices - and this is where I and I suspect others take issue

    but - and this IS important - he is trying to help - no matter how he concieves of "CFS" - he's found something that works for him and he's trying to pass it on - or thats my reading of the situation - I may be being niave

    is that about it carter?
  10. starryeyes

    starryeyes Senior Member

    Bay Area, California

    You're so wrong Carter and quit trying to insult my friends here! You're the one that's being immature.
  11. Jody

    Jody Senior Member

    Weights is a subject that interests me quite a bit.

    We seem to be straying afield from it though. Let's come back to the topic, shall we?
  12. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

    The other side.
    oh - i thought we'd given up on that lol

    weights - probably bad for most with ME - definately bad for some - the odd freak like me might be ok - but as I can lift wieghts some of the time (especially coz I can lift 120kg (from mid shin to mid thigh) for 1 second and only crash for a couple of weeks) I probably dont have ME - anyone who can lift should be suspect - that afaik is the consenus atm

    oh and saying you can lift weights is bad for the public image of ME

    sorry - couldnt resist lol

    what would you like to know Jody?

    I'm hardly an expert but I am in the afaik unique position of having taken up lifting relatively heavy weights (tho not compared with anyone who does actually lift who doesnt have M.E.) after I took this beast commonly know as M.E. into my life
  13. Jody

    Jody Senior Member

    Neatly summed up, Wonko.:D

    Well, the most I could lift was two 10 lb dumbbells, so I am not in your league for sure.:eek: But I was quite proud of my ability and I am not keeping that quiet for anyone.:Retro tongue:

    Like a bunch of other people from what I can gather, I have had times when any type of exercise was a very bad idea that would deepen a crash. But during better times, my bit of weight lifting was very good for me.

    So ... I don't think it's possible to make any kind of blanket statement here that would accurately encompass everyone with cfs. Or even the SAME person in times of crash and times of better health.

    It really is something that has to be individually determined ... constantly.:rolleyes:

    For those who are able to do it though, I think this is a great thread. And there may be some (hopefully) who though they are not able now due to their illness, may be able to do so in a healthy way in future. Definitely worth reading about.
  14. Jody

    Jody Senior Member

    There are a great many people with cfs who are NOT able to do this type of exercise and who will hurt themselves badly, and maybe for long extended periods if they try.

    I think it's impossible to take the wide variety of symptoms that are in the cfs community, and try to make any type of statement that pertains to us all. Arguments and misunderstandings are the only thing I've ever seen to come of the attempt.

    I have something very different from many friends of mine. Until we know what the cause(s) might be, there is only speculation. I for one am not willing to speculate on this subject. All I know right now, and all I need to know, is that we are all ill with something that is not getting much outside help. So we are here to help each other as best we can.

    Okay! Let's talk weights.:D
  15. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

    The other side.
    despite what I can lift on a barbell I treat dumbells with extreme caution (ie I dont use them lol) with a pair of 5kg (11lb?) dumbells if I try and do more than lift them off the ground (ie if I try and do a conventional dumbell workout) then I damage myself - after only a few sessions - we are only talking 10 reps an arm curl and the same for floor to overhead - after a week my arms didnt work properly - a couple of reps into the next session I had to quit - tooks weeks to heal and tbh my right elbow still isnt quite right - thats after about 7 months

    however the PEM cost was mild (not much above background) - if I'd have done any more the cost would have probably been a bit higher

    so be careful with dumbells - use with caution and NEVER fully straighten your arms

    thats why I was astonished to see one of the earlier posters (sorry I dont remember his name) describe a dumbbell routine involving 30 reps a set which continued for 45 minutes - and not surprised he crashed badly

    lightweight dumbells are IMO prmarily a tool for adding resistance to an aerobic workout - not one for a strength/resitance/conditioning workout - the only people who seem to use them are teenagers after big biceps (doesnt work), aerobics, PT and healthcare workers who are obsessed with aerobic training, and home users on what are essentially aerobic conditioning programs - just my opinion

    also IMO if all you can lift is a light dumbell then it's probably not a good idea to be lifting at all - I know thats not going to be a popular view - but dumbell work with light wieghts just doesnt provide enough resistance for conditioning (in people who can actually do it) before it becomes an aerobic "lets see how many reps we can do" workout - and thats whats damaging people

    so - if light dumbells is what you can lift - if it's all you've got and all you think is sensible - then please be careful - be very careful - indeed

    I'll be more specific - no more than 5 reps a set - no more than 3 sets of any exercise which exercises the same muscle group - that is ABSOLUTE maximium - you will see no benefit from doing more - and with each rep above this you increase the risk of damage for no gain - and thats a maximium people - if you can only manage 2 sets of 1 rep then thats fine - always have at least 1 rest day between workouts - you may need more recovery time than that but the only way to find out is to find out - and never train more than 3 days a week - again thats a maximium - if you can only do 1 thats fine - tho only 1 day every 2-3 weeks is probably pointless

    eat a little chocolate afterwards to deminish the risk of DOMS (muscle pain) - it's normal to feel sleepy a couple of hours after training - I've been told it's down to a drop in andrenal levels which makes you sleepy - the same way as a drop in blood sugar makes you hungry

    and rest - get at least 8-9 hours sleep a night - you need it to recover and repair the damage lifting does - it's important

    oh - and blindingly obvious tho it is I'll state it - if you get significant or worsening PEM's then stop - for at least a week - 2 is probably better - and look at your rest, diet and reassess what you are attempting before continuing

    one of the reasons I like/use weights has been said by heapsreal - wieghts are very adjustable - standard routines for deconditioned or weaker individuals are bodyweight routines - my body is damn heavy - weights are MUCH lighter - so whilst 5 pushups kills me and causes me problems, reverse crunches give me major issues - a squat carrying under an additional half my bodyweight is doable and sustainable - my whole body is supporting/lifting the weight and the forces infolved arent that much more (and functionally better) than getting off the sofa - and I started with under 10% of my bodyweight - which was less additional wieght than I'd lost over the preceeding months by changign my diet to only eat unprocessed foods - eg no hidden sugars, fats, or any of the other wonderful chemicals deemed so essential to us by the mass production food industries

    thats whole body rather than 1 rather insigificant bicep - I hope people can see the difference
  16. Jody

    Jody Senior Member


    Interesting. I didn't know that about dumb bells. I DO know that if I try to lift a barbell (even without the weights, just the bar itself) it used to be too heavy, so that's out.:Retro tongue:

    I hadn't run into the problems you have mentioned but it may be because I was only doing a few reps and a few sets at a time. I found it was a benefit to how I felt, energy level improved, strength improved ...

    I would also make sure to have at least one, and often 2 days of no work out in a row ... I'd go by how I felt. Sometimes it would be more days.

    I'm enjoying this thread. :Retro smile:
  17. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

    The other side.
    yeah - in my core workout - ok my core workout is squats - everythign else is optional - I dont use my arms - my arms are relatively weak and have small muscles - no real payoff from working them - lot of energy for little gain - I have a cage so the bar is racked at a height where I can get under it and it goes on my back without havign to lift it (granted I still have to lift weights onto the bar but that a 2 handed job and my biggest weight atm is 10kg) - arms/hands are just used to balance and to stop the bar rolling off my back - if done properly there shoudl be no weight/force on my arms

    my cage also has safety bars which are set so that if I cant get up with the weight I can just roll the bar back and it drops from my back half an inch onto them - avoiding me getting squished (or having to strain) if I hit a problem - I seriously wouldnt recommend anyone to lift the way I do without this sort of equipment or they are going to get hurt at some point - but then not many are likely to try as apparently few are as insane as I am ;-)

    5 lifts (under 2 minutes) probably uses as many core muscles as intensively as 30 mins on a multigym as it uses everything at once - intense but brief - each lift is probably under 5 secs but I pause in between for recovery and then pause for upto 5 minutes between sets

    with the week I've had I firmly believe I would have been unable to function after tuesday if I hadnt of built up my strength over the last 6-7 months - I'm still ill, I'm in a signifanct amoun of pain, cant stand upright, can only hobble, fine motor controls shot, hell motor controls a bit ropey - it's been very unpleasant - I'm going to be unwell for the next few weeks - I've pushed myself a little beyond what I consider safe - another day and it would have been total collapse - but the extra sheer brute force I can employ means that even a 80% muscle power drop still allows me to function - albeit barely

    sometimes things need to be done - people need help - sometimes you have to push the limits - my limits are now higher (ok not now but they were lol) - thats the payoff - I still have M.E. - I still crash - but.........

    if your wondering what i've done this week thats used so many resources havent been doing much physical - I have a friend who needed my help - I've sat and talked with her, motivated her and made sure she was eating (even made the odd drink/sandwich) thats all - the cost has been that this has had to be face to face, she lives a mile away from me, I cant walk it, money for taxi's ran out earlier in the week, so I've ben havign to catch the bus - thats all - going there for 3 hours a day for 5 days has destroyed me - I'd do anthign in my power to help her but i'm glad someone else has taken over and I no longer have to do it

    (sorry if thats OT but for soem reason I needed to say that)
  18. Carter Burke

    Carter Burke Guest

    Well I won't waste too much time repeating myself, but I've never said anything about CFS being a psychological illness and nothing you're saying goes against anything I've said.

    I'm saying CFS isn't a 'disease'. It's a condition/syndrome/state.

    That's why the establishment calls it Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and not Chronic Fatigue Disease. There's an important distinction there. But I think you're filling in a lot of gaps with other people's arguments.

    Yeah, but I can do 2-3,000 steps a day and drive a few hours WITHOUT getting symptoms. That's what's important.

    (Even I'm not at the stage where weight training is beneficial btw - I have experimented there. My recovery times are improving but any attempts to get back into weights, using various regimes, have not yet done anything other than blunt recovery rates.)

    I'm not saying my protocol will work for everyone, but if you're serious about getting well: Get in contact with a specialist.

    Here's the thing: If you don't think CFS is ultimately a "lifestyle" illness, how would you explain all the people who get well after they make lifestyle changes?

    Read stories of recovery from CFS - I've read hundreds - there's almost always some factor which helped tip the balance and got them into a good pace of recovery. Most commonly you see: pacing, mercury detoxing, vitamins/minerals (commonly magnesium or B12, but amino acids make a big difference for some), identifying food intolerances, alkaline diets, different approaches to life, for *some* people graded exercise, and for many, some combination of those.

    I've seen blogs where they've listed celebrities who've recovered from CFS, and guarantee you'll always get someone chiming in saying "Oh well they obviously didn't have CFS then if they recovered".

    So you set up this idea of an illness in which anyone who recovers never had it? Well if you're doing that, it would make no difference whether it was treatable - whether 99% of people recovered or 10% of people recovered - because by your own criteria, *no one* recovers; you're manipulating the sample data... Not saying that's You, but this attitude seems so common in the CFS community, and it's got no grounding in science and no support from anyone with any knowledge of the condition, it's just what people tell each other. It's depression.

    The reason I say it's important to have a positive mental attitude and an understanding of CFS grounded in science is because otherwise you're *unlikely* to make the changes necessary to restore health.

    Okay, on weights. The problem seems to be the recovery period, not the lifting itself. When you exercise muscle tissue, you break it down, then it takes 5-7 days to repair. This is why bodybuilders do split routines, and hit different muscle groups on different days of the week. (Exercise the same muscles 2 days in a row, or alternate days, and you're more likely to push yourself into fatigue/injury; less likely to get results. And that's true for perfectly healthy people too.)

    It's those 5 days following any lifting which are going to knock your recovery because the body needs nutrients, glutamine, leucine, valine, etc. which most PWCs are already very low on. Plus there's additional free radical damage, which can worsen mitochondrial problems, longer-term.

    I come from a sports science background, so that was my main focus for a long time... What I've found much more important than raising fitness/strength in the short-mid-term, in the recovery stage, is raising your ability to recover...

    I gauge this by putting stress on my knee joint. Stand on one leg, bend the knee a bit, see if you feel a weakness/soreness on the knee tendon.

    If you do, you're ALREADY "overtraining" -> your body can't repair and keep up with the muscular demands of walking at your current level of activity. (And forget about improving strength/endurance while you're overtrained - you can only go backwards as you add more damage to the system in the vain hopes it'll repair stronger.)

    So... I didn't start getting stronger by lifting MORE weights, I started by taking on a nutrition and rest/recovery routine like a bodybuilder, and waiting for my body to catch up... Which it did. And I put on about half a stone of muscle without actually doing anything.

    I take L-Glutamine and BCAAs because they help with muscle building and muscle recovery. But you HAVE to be managing the demands of daily life before it's going to be beneficial adding any more stress... I just wish I could stress how important it is to use tried and tested recovery protocols and NOT just exchange information with other people who haven't got themselves better... Like I said, I was my own worst enemy for years with this. People's health is far more important than their feelings.
  19. Jody

    Jody Senior Member

    What did you think might be OT? (I'm assuming OT means "over the top", not "Old Testament" ... :rolleyes:
  20. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

    The other side.
    not really weights related - off topic btw lol

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