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Water retention how do I cure it?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by currer, Sep 16, 2010.

  1. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    I get a lot of water retention on my body. I read somewhere that it could be due to inflammation making the capilliaries leaky. It makes me feel so uncomfortable. Does anyone have any experience of sorting this symptom out? It is not due to the menstrual cycle.
     
  2. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Fluid retention

    I have a lot also.

    Doctor says, "watch your salt intake, cut back."

    I tracked EVERYTHING that passed my lips, used an online site which tracked besides calories... sodium content of the food. If the site did not have, let's say, the sodium content of the brand of frozen spinach I eat, I could add the information from the back of the package. So EVERYTHING I ate was entered and I kept track for some time. I was WELL below the daily suggested intake for sodium....some days only 50%, my calories were very low also.

    This was not a new eating habit for me. I eat well below the normal amt of calories per day.

    My ankles are very bloated. My legs looks as though I have puddles here and there. This makes walking more difficult and I question it this is contributing to my pain.....

    Wish I knew the way to correct this.........

    June
     
  3. Mya Symons

    Mya Symons Mya Symons

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    I take an anti-inflammatory twice a day and it really helps me to relieve water retention. (75 mg Dicloflonec twice a day along with misoprostol to protect the stomach)
     
  4. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Oh????...............years ago I had been on Voltaren, I mean years and years ago. I did not have the swelling problems at that time. Hmmmm I don't know that my doctor would prescribe this

    June
     
  5. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Thanks for the suggestion. But I tried diclofenac for a few days and found it got worse! Though I am glad it worked for you. It shows how idiosyncratic we are in our symptoms. I find that I cannot pee in the day but I am up at night - so I accumulate water in the daytime. I think it is just something that has gone wrong and maybe will not go right until my general health changes (maybe xmrv treatment - if that comes along) will put my body into a new equilibrium. I feel that I have got into a way of being able to function with CFS but an odd way of functioning so not everything works right, but I'm not as catastrophically ill as I was. I suppose I can be grateful for that.
    I found once that when I went on an exclusion diet all the water went off for three months but then came back on even tho I stuck to the diet. But I cant face living on buckwheat pancakes again - there has to be an easier way!
     
  6. Lethal Lee

    Lethal Lee

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    Perth Western Australia
    Water Retention & Electrolytes

    Water retention is caused by electrolyte imbalances mainly Sodium & Potassium but also Calcium & Magnesium. If Sodium & Potassium are too low or not balanced then you have issues.

    You need good Sodium levels (upper 1/4 of Ref Range) to properly hydrate the body.
    Potassium too should be upper 1/4 of range. Sometimes when Serum Potassium levels look good there is a problem at the cellular level which can be tested as RBC Potassium.

    The electrolyte levels are controlled by Aldosterone (from Adrenals) & Renin (from Kidneys).

    Calcium & Magnesium also affect Potassium & Sodium indirectly.
    To test them you need Corrected Calcium and/or Ionised Calcium & RBC Magnesium.

    Most folks don't have optimal Potassium & Magnesium. I am on rx SR Potassium Chloride, use Ancient Minerals Magnesium Oil (applied topically) as well as Florinef (for Sodium/Salt retention because I have low Aldo) as well as drink Salted water daily & Salt food with Sea Salt.. OTC Potassium is far too low & goes through body quickly. Oral Magnesium is hopeless to optimise RBC Mag & replentish the body.

    Many folks are in fact TOO LOW on proper Salt. By all means avoid toxic refined table Salt which is pure Sodium Chloride with all other nutrients stripped from it & contains undesirable toxic ingredients to make it "flow", to keep it dry & make it appear nice & white. Most processed food contains this type of Salt.

    So yes do avoid table Salt but DON'T avoid unrefined, unbleached, off white & dampish REAL Sea Salt.

    My high BP, HR & temps all normalised & water retention is 99% gone with all the above.

    Oh & I avoid Calcium too. Most folks have far too much Calcium but not enough Vit D, E, A & K2 which together with Magnesium regulates Calcium metabolism.

    As well as electrolytes Estrogen/Progesterone levels & balance also affect water retention.
    Progesterone is a precursor for Aldosterone & the fluctuations in Progesterone over a Woman's cycle affect Aldo & therefore Sodium & Potassium. That's why many bloat at certain times in their cycle.

    Cellular dehydration plays a big part in health issues. It is common to have low blood volume & water retention when dehydrated. Affects Liver & Kidney Function, digestion/bowels & causes headaches/migraines as well.

    I don't have any IBS, bowel issues or headaches any more either.
     
  7. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Lethal Lee, are there any reference materials you could suggest I read? Your post is interesting but I don't understand it well enough......your electrolyte levels, were these the levels done at a routine blood drawn requested by a primary care?

    I have noticed in the hot summer months, I have a much more difficult time, and certainly the heat and humidity could deplete those electrolytes. I love sea salt. It tastes SO much better than the refined salts.

    June
     
  8. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member

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    Before CFS was invented, there was a study into ME where they found that antidiuretic hormone did not work properly in ME. It was by Behan and Behan so you might be able to search for it on pubmed.

    I think it is another things controlled by the hypothalamus and the autonomic nervous system which don't work properly in ME/CFS.

    Water balance is controlled by hormones as well as minerals. Diabetes insipidus is caused by this hormone problem and I have read that some people with CFS get it.

    This hormone involvement is why you can sleep for eight hours without your bladder filing up yet need to go every two or three during the day. Going during the night is common in ME/CFS and a complete reversal not unusual.

    I go every two hours at night which is useful to me as I have to put in eye drops to prevent corneal erosions. It also helps that I don't need during the day because it is a struggle to get to the bathroom :Retro smile:

    Doing something about it is another story, though.

    I am alcohol intolerant, but if I was going out and couldn't get my skirt to fasten, I would have a very small vodka with lots of fresh orange juice. Alcohol is a diuretic so it would get rid of some of the fluid while the orange juice helped counteract the effect of the alcohol.

    I can't take any alcohol now, but I have elasticated skirts and don't go anywhere anyway :Retro smile:

    The swelling was very bad when I was younger and after my second child was born I was forced to wear some of my maternity clothes. As I walked to the playpark with my toddler and the baby an elderly friend looked at me and then said I should have known better than to get pregnant again so quickly. I was far too embarrassed to explain about my illness :( :Retro smile:

    Mithriel
     
  9. hensue

    hensue Senior Member

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    Fluid retention!!! my ankles are huge and calves I really have to watch the salt thing. If I eat to much salt my pain in my body is unbearable. Being diagnosed with FM for about 6 years and then High blood pressure. Now I take a hbp with diuretic, tried to half it and hurt so bad all over had to go back to the whole tablet.
    When I was pregnant many moons ago I actually had fluid seeping out my calves at the end of pregnancy. I was on the slim side as far as weight control and really watched what I ate.
    This is huge issue for me also.
    I also get up many times at night to use the bathroom. I tried some estrogen and progestrone about 10 years ago I would retain fluid like crazy and hurt. Same thing with birth contol pills I retained fluid. Never was able to take any of it. Maybe that was a good thing I hope.

    I dont know what the answer is? Wish I did not have to take the hbp but even before it I constantly fought the swelling issue so bad it feels like it cuts off your ciirculation.
     
  10. Mya Symons

    Mya Symons Mya Symons

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    Has anyone ever tried Lasix? My mother used to use this for congestive Heart disease and water retention. I have no idea if it would work for CFS water retention, however, it worked really well for her. As I understand, her heart was having a hard time circulating all the fluids. Since some people with CFS have the same problem, maybe it would work. Scratch this--I just looked this up and Lasix has a side effect of lowering blood volume so it is probably not a good medication for people with CFS to use.
     
  11. hensue

    hensue Senior Member

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    I know I have a diruetic in avalide I am not sure it if it is lasix? It is really weird about the fluid retention. Like you said I feel like I have hard time circulating all the fluids.
     
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I have noticed that both wheat (gluten) and dairy cause me to retain water. This is about 2-3 pounds for me, not as bad as ankle bloating, but maybe it would be worth cutting out wheat and dairy and see what that does for you. You should be able to tell within a few days.

    Lethal Lee could also be onto something with the electrolyte imbalance/adrenal thing. However, I have adrenal exhaustion and have to take extra salt and magnesium, but I don't have a water problem.
     
  13. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Thanks for all the responses. I certainly recognise what some of you report of your experiences. I think I could have an intolerance to wheat and dairy because the water came off before when I did that - but I can't face changing my diet just yet! I wouldn't mind if I could be exactly sure it would work - it is making colossal efforts for very little gain that demoralise me. As everyone here knows we try very hard to sort out our health. but the improvement does not always match the effort. However I have taken note of all the suggestions and will try them all in time. I'm having a holiday from healthy diets just at the moment and tho I feel a slob I at least feel I fit in with others better if I am eating everything they can eat.! Has anyone else got any experiences they can add? Or is there a book I can read to inform myself about this? This is the sort of problem where doctors are not helpfut 1. because they think it trivial and 2 because they have no information about it
    Oh and incidentally I was told in passing by my doctor - I wasn't asking about this - that my sodium level was low. And I also recognise the problem some of you describe of feeling that my blood volume is too low while most of the body water is in the tissues.!
     
  14. Lethal Lee

    Lethal Lee

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    Perth Western Australia
    Serum Potassium & Sodium are simple blood tests. They usually are part of the CMP (in USA) elsewhere are part of KFT (Kidney Function Test) or called U& E (Urea & Electrolytes).
    RBC Magnesium & RBC Potassium are NOT part of anything else & need to be asked for separately. Note not all Labs do RBC Minerals.
    All tests should be done early am fasting & before meds & supps.

    My Primary Care Doc did all my testing including Aldo & Renin & rxed rx Potassium & Sex Hormone HRT. I had to go to Hormonal Doc to get ACTH Stim testing (for Adrenal Insufficiency) she rxed Prednisolone/HC & Florinef.
    Aldosterone & Renin require particular handling (particular type of tube, kept cold etc) so enquire if Lab you plan to use knows how to handle it.
    Specifically
    -Renin 10 mL blood in EDTA tube, transported immediately to the laboratory on melting ice
    -Aldo 10 mL blood in chilled EDTA tube - plasma separated and frozen immediately.

    Instructions for correctly testing Aldosterone & Renin are
    -Test 8am before any supps/meds.
    -Fasting food after midnight
    -NO Salt supping (i.e. if you take Sea Salt daily, skip it) & NO high Salty foods (like fast food) for at least 24 hours before testing
    Some sodas and bottled water also contain extra sodium, so read the labels.
    -Best to test Aldosterone, Renin, Sodium & Potassium at the same time
    -DO NOT LAY DOWN FOR TEST!!!!!
    Need to be sitting for test and have been up & around (sitting or standing) for 2 hours beforehand
    -And one note for women that are Premenopausal test during the first week of your cycle (Day 3 is ideal but close to that is fine)
    because aldosterone increases during the second half of your cycle with rising Progesterone
    -note cannot validly test if on meds, HRT that affect Aldosterone (eg. Diuretics, BP meds, Progesterone, Licorice, BCP's, some painkillers 2 weeks prior to testing)
    -note when interpreting results for Aldosterone use Salt Fasting Ranges (low Salt), for Renin use Upright Salt Fasting Ranges
    many Labs put wrong ranges on reports

    Here are a few links

    Water: Swelling, Tension, Pain, Fatigue, Aging
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml
    Fluid Compartments in the Body
    http://physioweb.med.uvm.edu/bodyfluids/fluid1.htm

    What is Dehydration
    http://www.causeof.org/dehydrate.htm#WhatIs
    Sea Salt
    http://www.causeof.org/salt.htm

    Hydration Fluids for Life
    http://www.beverageinstitute.org/healthcare_professionals/pdf/Hydration_Fluids_for_Life.pdf
    Fluid & Electrolyte Metabolism
    http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec12/ch156/ch156a.html
    Fluid Balance
    http://www.ann.com.au/MedSci/fluid.htm
    Aldosterone
    http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/aldosterone/
    ====================================================================
    Water Retention Salt Potassium & B6
    http://www.drkaslow.com/html/adrenal_insufficiency.html

    Ankle and/or Finger Swelling.
    John Tintera, M.D. was an early pioneer in recognizing and treating adrenal insufficiency. He wrote that salt is a diuretic and that hypoadrenocortics (patients with low adrenal cortex function) retain fluid because the body is trying to hold onto the salt. When enough salt is consumed, the body takes what it needs and excretes the rest.
    If the ankle edema is due to insufficient salt, the edema will usually disappear in three days after taking adequate salt. If it does not disappear in five to six days, potassium may also be needed.
    Vitamin B6 is also helpful for edema not only because it has a diuretic effect but also supports the adrenal cortex.
    ====================================================================================
     
  15. George

    George waitin' fer rabbits

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    Potassium, potassium, potassium

    Oh god! before potassium nothing worked, I looked like the good year blimp and wept fluid from around the skin of my eyes!

    After potassium (500mg per day or about 15% or RDA) I lost 15 lbs of water weight, I can wear my shoes! My face now has wrinkles because of where all the swelling went down but believe me I'll take that! I can wear my cloths. Anddddddd every thing else works now, the magnesium and the Co Q10 did get rid of the tachycardia but not till I got on the potassium.

    I heart potassium, I love potassium. It is my best friend. Oh and did I mention that my BP went back to normal????
     
  16. Nielk

    Nielk

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    I have suffered from water retention for years. My shoe size has gone up by 2 sizes and my ring size is huge. My doctors pretty much ignore this symptom. They agree that my feet and hands
    are bloated but are not too worried about it.
    it is very uncomfortable for me and when I complain a lot, my doctor will prescribe lasix which does help but he will only prescribe it for one month.

    I never understood why I have this symptom.
     
  17. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Currer

    I am on a gluten free diet, and have so much water retention...... so that was not the cause in my case.

    Let's keep looking.....

    June
     
  18. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Lethal Lee

    Thank you for all the info and the links......I off to read...... :)

    June
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Currier,

    I used to retain a large amount of excess water. Without a diuretic I put on 3 pounds a day. After correcting my causal problems I dumped 80 pounds of water in a few months. This happened immediately following the addition of adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate to the previously started mb12 and all the basics. I also brought my muscle mass up to what it had been before I crashed in 1987. It had atrophied to a tiny fraction over the years. My thigh muscle at the end of 16 years of crashed disuse was the thickness of my index finger. All the rest were similarly reduced. It took 5 years to restore all my muscles.

    Let's consider what can cause water leakage thjrough the endothelium. For starters, some drugs such as opioids can cause this. Another cause can be epithelial damage (inflmmation) from mb12/methylfolate deficiency. This can cause such water leakage into the tissues as well as E.D. in a male. If this is the case CRP is often raised. CRP will generally drop to about 1.0 after a year or more on mb12/adb12/methylfolate as the endothelium and epithelium heal. However, this endothelium healing appears to be the second slowest healing, just ahead of neurological. The mb12/adb12 often restores sexual functioning of several kinds and increases fertility for both males and females. Multiple guys have reported restoration of erections with these active b12s and folate. This could be from any number of causes from healing neuropathies to endothelial healing or hormonal changes. Mb12 and adb12 are invloved in all these things. And potassium is a MUST while following this active b12 protocol. Magnesium and calcium are part of the essential basics.
     
  20. Emootje

    Emootje Senior Member

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    The Netherlands
    Atrial natriuretic peptide (ANP) increases vascular permeability with's results in low blood volume and increased interstitial volume (edema). I think you are right that it could be due to inflammation. (cytokines increases ANP)

    "Atrial natriuretic peptide (ANP) acts acutely to reduce plasma volume by at
    least 3 mechanisms: increased renal excretion of salt and water, vasodilation,
    and increased vascular permeability
    "
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1137012/pdf/JCI0525417.pdf
     

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