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WARNING - LOW POTASSIUM IS DANGEROUS

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Seattle
    Hi Hannah,

    I found a company -- Bella Viva -- that does in fact sell SOME organic dried fruits that contain no sulfites.

    http://www.bellaviva.com/organic-dried-fruit

    Click on the fruit you're interested in, then you can click on "Allergen", and that will tell you what possible allergens may be present, and specifically if sulfites are used.

    Their non-organic fruits all use sulfur dioxide -- basically sulfites -- in the drying process.

    Hope this helps.
     
  2. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Jerusalem, Israel
    Thanks danny for your research!
     
  3. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    I realize this is possibly a long shot, but I've been having some problems on-and-off with supplements lately .. one disclaimer is that I've been withdrawing from Lyrica, and my anxiety levels are elevated as a result.

    At the moment, I'm taking just Uridine (as Uridine Monophosphate). The capsules come as a 250mg powder, from Jarrow's.

    Because it's water-soluble, I tip about half the capsule into a glass of water, dissolve it and then drink.

    I've been suffering from torturous akathisia and find the Uridine very beneficial in that regard (it normalizes dopamine levels), but immediately (within 60 seconds) of ingesting, my stomach will feel firm and bloated, almost as if pregnant, and I find breathing becomes more difficult.

    It could just be increased anxiety .. but the bloating is unusual, and so I checked and it looks like the Uridine comes as disodium.

    One thing I was wondering .. is it possible the Uridine, since it's a salt, is affecting Potassium levels, causing bloating/water retention and hence difficulty breathing?

    I don't supplement with any other minerals (and can't tolerate Magnesium), so would there be any harm in taking a potassium supplement to see if it fixes the bloating, or do I risk causing further imbalances?
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Outdamnspot,

    Some things I read suggest that vitamin B6 may be helpful. Are there any other drugs involved? Is anxiety a "normal" symptom that is being increased from withdrawal from lyrica?
     
  5. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    Thanks for your reply, Freddd.

    I've tried B6, but unfortunately it's a bit too much for my system right now (seems like everything is!) and it just makes me overstimulated.

    Anxiety is a normal symptom, yes .. but the movement issues aren't .. and anxiety has been brought to very high levels.

    The most prominent things I have noticed have been the bloating, muscle tension, painfully tight hamstrings, fatigue and weakness (which aren't usual for me).
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Low potassium can cause paralysis of stomach and intestines, painfully tight muscles, fatigue and weakness and emotional changes. Depending upon a lot of other factors it could be a cause. That can be tested for by a doctor. Serum levels of potassium can change rapidly. Many of us who have "normal" levels of 4.3 or less can have temporary low potassium caused by a period of methylation, and B6 could be a limiting factor of that considering your response. Who knows. It is involved with MeCbl and methylfolate in some methylation reactions.

    Low potassium not raised can cause serious and even fatal problems so it is nothing to ignore and hope it goes away.
     
  7. kraken

    kraken

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    Started methylation protocol around a week ago. Included around 2-3 mg methyl B12, 1,6 mg folate and some other occasional donors, however, now I'm just on the B-vitamins with a lowered dose because of the symptoms explained below.

    I've experienced profound changes in heartbeat around 4-5 days after I started, my heartbeat was around 44 when normally it is around 52-53 (given I lay in bed resting). Following days also included shortness of breath and (what I believe) was irregular heartbeat. This was pretty scary and provoked sort of severe anxiety as well. Also been experiencing tingling in my fingers sporadically throughout the days since started and sometimes cold hands/feet.

    So my thought is: Low potassium? Got it coming in next 2-3 days, been reducing my dosage way since this happened. Anyone have a clue if this might be it or something else?
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kracken,

    Here is a list of the symptoms typical from methylation startup as reported by lots of people .

    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
     
  9. CaliObserver

    CaliObserver

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    @Freddd et al

    Howdy. I just wanted to pop in and say that I thought I didn't have any potassium issues from the protocol, however I have discovered that some of my symptoms dissipate when I take potassium gluconate. I've only tried tablets so far, two after a meal, four after dinner, totaling 800mg for the day. I was waking early with severe tenseness and pain and that is greatly relieved. Painful arm spasms at times were also relieved. I've had these symptoms before starting the protocol so I suspect that I was deficient in potassium prior to the protocol, but I am waiting on a well timed blood test result to hopefully tell me that is/was the case. This has been an exciting discovery.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
    whodathunkit likes this.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi CaliObserver,

    Very interesting. It seems I had these low potassium symptoms going back to childhood, "growing pains" my docs called them,. So growing tissue depletes potassium causing symptoms, literally growing pains. Then a study a few years ago tied "growing pains" to FMS later in life. Very interesting and a completely unexpected direction.
     
    CaliObserver likes this.
  11. CaliObserver

    CaliObserver

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    @Freddd
    Woot! My doctor told me I had growing pains also when I was a child. I just got my lab results. I only know to look at a couple of things. My MCV is 92.5. My K is 3.9. My D vitamin is a 82.2. Do you know of any other pertinent markers I may have available?
     
  12. lift

    lift

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    Could negative effects associated from potassium supplementation be from antagonizing B vitamins/something else? And not necessarily from hyperkalemia? I think I read somewhere that potassium can lower thiamine.

    Increased potassium intake gives me heavy breathing and head pressure. Seriously what does this mean? Reduced kidney function? Why can one person tolerate 3000mg worth of extra supplements/food regularly and I cant tolerate 2000mg once?

    I was actually on the blood pressure drug coversyl, which is potassium sparing. Initially it did a good job of lowering my blood pressure and the only bad side effect I had was dry eyes in the morning. But eventually after a couple of months I ended up with heavy breathing and really bad head pressure that kept me up at night. Those symptoms ceased immediately after stopping coversyl. That was months ago, but I have tried a couple times now with 1L of cococnut water and I get a flair up of heavy breathing and strange head feeling when I do.
     
  13. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    So, @lift , sorry I don't have any answers for you, but I'm pretty good at hypotheses. I had that same heavy breathing effect from Epsom salt baths. Seriously, what does it mean? I think it means an increased need for oxygen. I guessed, when it happened to me, that some biochemical process was working where there had been something restricting it. I figured it was healing, as so much was NOT working when that happened. It will be interesting to see if it happens again, now that I'm much healthier. (Funny, but I could have found out recently, but my bath was not as hot as usual, which might have affected absorption...I had mistaken the cold for the hot when I turned on the tap, :thumbdown: and the water here is so warm this time of year, I thought I was going to have to see if the water heater had been turned down.)

    I don't know about the drug you're taking, but I thought potassium sparing is just that - it doesn't make you excrete more potassium than you should. I don't think it prevents you from excreting potassium, but I could be wrong.
     
  14. soccer_dude

    soccer_dude

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    Hi,

    I know this is an old thread, and not sure if anyone is going to reply, but thought I'd add my experience so far with Methlyation and possible potassium deficiency.

    I have MTRR++ defect. I require Methyl-B12. I was taking about 1000-2000mcg of dry capsule form, which seemed to help a little. I thne moved to high dosage sublingual which has 4000mcg Methylcobalamin and 1000mcg of Adenosylcobalamin. Wow what a difference that made!!! I started feeling quite a bit better. I do worry a little as I do have some form of Adrenal Fatigue, and I've read that this could cause a crash. Not sure why it would especially if my body has a high need for it.

    Anyway, I also added 5mg of iron as you make more red blood cells, I believe your cells require more iron. So, adding a low dose of iron also really seemed to help.

    I'm also taking TMG to help with methylation. That seems to be helping as well. But as soon as starting the TMG, I noticed some achy feelings in my right foot and right hand. It came and went. And for the longest time I had fisiculating muscles in my calves. Some times cramping, etc... But, I drink TONS of water, so I know I'm not dehydrated. More recently, I started having more muscle aches, cramping, tingling/numbness, heart palps, fast heart beat off/on, insomnia, and yesterday I had a couple of moments where I feel really light headed like I was going to black out for second, but that passed. I did check blood sugars and they were fine.

    I started researching low potassium, and ran into this site. And from what I've read here and elsewhere, it would seem that I might have a higher requirement for potassium. I take high doses of B12, magnesium, Vitamin C, Zinc, etc... All of what I've read could cause a requirement for more potassium. So, I think I've hit a possible dangerous level of low potassium yesterday. I ended up taking about 1200mg of Potassium Chloride. After about 1.5 hours I started feeling a lot better. I took a litle more in the evening and this morning I feel better. So, I will probably keep supplementing it for a while.

    A couple of questions I have about potassium...Does your body store potassium? Can you build up levels then not need as much? How much should you take per day and for low long to restore your levels?

    Cheers!
     
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    My understanding is that K+ is needed as folate begins new cellular activity. I needed high doses for 2+ years, with also high folate/B12 doses. I only dosed according to symptoms. Over time, my needs for all 3 of these things decreased, I no longer need extra K+. My limited understanding is that B12 is stored, and we reach a saturation level, but that folate and K+ do not build up stores. You'd have to verify this yourself.
     
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  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Soccer_dude,

    I recently added a "refeeding syndrome" post in the methylation menu. Going back to to the end of WW II when starving people were fed many of them got sick on the third day or so and quite a few dropped dead. Then this was found to happen after fasts as short as 5 days, anorexia, vitamin deficiency, etc. It doesn't matter why cell making got stopped. When the missing items that caused it to stop are added, the body starts making cells again, whether it was the suspected blood cells in the 1950s when injectable b12 was first tested or the reversal of atrophying muscles or loss of weight from intentional or unintentional starvation of any kind. It only takes 1 missing vitamin to stop a lot of methylation which stops a lot of cell formation.

    The deadlock quartet, MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate (about 90% of those that have carnitine make a huge difference, ALCAR about 10%, the reason for the difference is unknown but the need for the right carnitine has been known about for decades and has been argued back and forth whether it should be a vitamin because not everybody can synthesize one or more of the varieties they need). The reason for all four of these items is because methylation is needed in many ATP reaction sequences and ATP is needed in many methylation sequences. Think growing cells for instance; as methylation and ATP are both needed. To convert folic acid to human usable l-methylfolate takes methyl groups, an enzyme and ATP. To convert CyCbl/HyCbl to the two human active forms of B12, MeCbl and AdoCbl, takes methyl groups, enzymes and ATP. Folic acid, HyCbl and CyCbl are not self starters. They are dependent on the person already having some of the working forms. Missing any one of those four items of the deadlock quartet deadlocks over 600 reaction chains and the symptoms overlap considerably of course.

    The following sets of symptoms cover the generally fast to occur refeeding syndrome symptoms. Both potassium and methylfolate deficiency symptoms can start increasing dramatically on the third day after starting especially the deadlock quartet components, or even each one of them and many other vitamins and minerals in an order of current insufficiency.

    So looking at potassium, one might notice that just about everything a person can eat has potassium in it because it is a major component of cells. We need to absorb about 3-5 grams (3000-5000 mg) a day to keep even. Putting on tissue, from blood to muscle to healing various things, all draw potassium from serum, the only place it is available. The potassium from food takes about 14 hours to reach peak serum level. It is then rapidly transferred into the tissue via insulin. Ones normal serum level reflects the overall potassium in the body in a general way but is used for all current needs. If current needs require more potassium than can transfer back into serum from tissue fast enough, one can get a rapidly falling serum potassium level that can cause a variety of symptoms including death if the symptoms are ignored, perhaps by calling them "detox" or something else. When many people have a basic methylation/ATP startup as you described, usually both low potassium and low folatre symptoms will develope in several days and worseon until corrected.


    Version 1.4 09/25/2015

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels


    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,


    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
     
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  17. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Board Member

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    Dear soccer_dude. Nobody on PR actually knows anything about this as far as I can see. From what people write, including Freddd, it seems they make it up as they go along. If low potassium after increasing methylation was truly dangerous then members of PR would be lying about dead like wasps in a glass of beer. YOur body holds vast stores of potassium. Shifts occur over 24-48 hrs if metabolism changes. There seems to be no reason why stimulating methylation would increase potassium requirements over a period of more than a week at the very most. You only need more potassium if you pee it out more.

    I think it would be wise to assume that nobody here has a clue. And if it is a matter of medical safety we are not allowed to give you advice anyway.
     
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  18. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    I am not giving medical advice, for sure. Don't take anything I say as medical advice.

    I am, however, perfectly happy to share my experience -- my own clues -- with people who are doing similar methylation supplementation work. I've been doing this work for over a year and a half, with tremendous improvements to my body and my life. I have literally gone from disabled to abled.

    WRT potassium, it is clear to me, for my body at least, that potassium supplementation is essential, not optional, and that such supplementation quickly and effective addresses my deficit symptoms. Daily. Reliably.

    To be clear, I did my own independent research. I talked to my doctors. A kidney doctor of my acquaintance told me that as long as your kidneys are healthy, it's near impossible to overdose on potassium. (Not medical advice to you; I'm just reporting a conversation I had about medical advice to ME.) I don't worry about too much potassium; I take it to alleviate deficit symptoms. For me, it most certainly does.

    Don't take my advice, as medical or otherwise: do your own research. Anyone who gives you advice can be wrong for your body, which is not like anyone else's body. Make your own decisions.
     
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  19. Nikki7

    Nikki7

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    I am new to the methylation protocol. My doctor has me on shots every other day, and I'm taking additional B12 twice a day at 2,000 mcg for the moment along with other b complex, magnesium, calcium, etc. I am exhausted and cramping all over. I've been eating bananas, drinking coconut water all day long every day. My potassium needs seem to be a lot. Does this mean I need to cut back on B12? I'm approximately 99 pounds. The B12 is reversing nerve problems, so it's working. I just don't want to end up at the hospital. I'm having the doctor check my potassium and all today. I'm concerned that it will lead to B1 deficiency and so on...any thoughts? Should I slow down? Thanks!
     
  20. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Board Member

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    I think you need to consult your doctor. If there is a serious potassium problem your doctor needs to deal with it. As a physician I personally think it is very unlikely that B 12 injections would cause symptoms due to low potassium but you need to take advice from your doctor, not from Phoenix Rising. I strongly suspect nobody here has any expertise on this matter anyway.
     
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