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WARNING - LOW POTASSIUM IS DANGEROUS

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Crux, thanks so much for the info about potassium types. What about "potassium as ascorbate" - is that really potassium, i.e. can it be used as potassium supplementation?
  2. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    I'm simply using low-sodium salt, since I seem to need the sodium too (low blood pressure, the usual). I mix it up carefully with other powdered supplements, magnesium and d-ribose and so on, and measure it out into cups of herbal tea throughout the day. Any problem with that?
  3. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Ascorbate just means it's mixed with ascorbic acid. It's still a source of potassium.
  4. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Rich & Freddd

    Is there any chance that supplementing potassium could throw off sodium or the electrolyte balance? I guess my concern is I have urine and/or hair tests showing taht I have been dumping potassium & sodium.

    Thanks
    AQ

    PS. I am looking into that exatest.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    I had a problem at one time when via adding multi-component supplements and ended up with too much calcium. That can and did cause tetany. This balance is the thing I feel that I have the weakest grasp on. It doesn't change things immediately so they can sneak up on you. Its like 100 excess calories a day can sneak up on you in the form of 10 pounds in a year.

    My strategy with the potassium is to take enough that I don't need an extra dose more than every couple of weeks. However, if I don't feel a lower potassium episode sneaking up on me at least every 2-3 weeks, I drop by 200mg a day (1 tab morning and night). I find I can get it close but there are day to day variations. In the 3 weeks now since my last paradoxical folate deficiency episode I have been the most stable ever on the potassium, without a reduced need going into deficiency and then a larger need coming out, which also is going into edema and coming out. I find that a sudden increase in my weight by 3 pounds a day indicates going into PFD.
  6. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Pea;
    Firstly, I must admit two things; I'm techno-slow, and I haven't yet learned to navigate here. Secondly, My understanding of chemistry is only rudimentary. There's still hope though.
    With a quick search for potassium ascorbate,I found one brand that listed the amounts of vitamin C and elemental potassium in it's ingredients. In a 500 mg. cap, ascorbic acid is 408.7mg., potassium is 91.3 mg. I'm not sure if this is a standard. ( maybe not) It's a good idea to try to find out, because of the possible side effects of taking too much at one time. ( loose stools )
  7. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    thanks, Adreno & Crux. You both explain things well. I was asking about the 'potassium as ascorbate' because it is part of a "flush" which helped improve some confusion & anxiety (until this evening, anyway..), and then there is a daily maintenance dose, so I was hoping it was truly a potassium supplement so that is taken care of.

    This is the powder from another thread on the "Vitamin C flush"

    The Perque Potent C Guard lists per 1/2 teaspoon:
    l-ascorbate - 1,584 mg.
    Potassium (as ascorbate) - 99 mg.
    Calcium (as ascorbate) - 40 mg.
    Magnesium (as ascorbate) - 16 mg.
    Zinc (as ascorbate) - 600 mcg.
  8. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Does anybody understand the balance of below -

    Potassium, sodium and chloride comprise the electrolyte family of minerals. Called electrolytes because they conduct electricity when dissolved in water, these minerals work together closely. About 95% of the potassium in the body is stored within cells, while sodium and chloride are predominantly located outside the cell.

    Potassium is especially important in regulating the activity of muscles and nerves. The frequency and degree to which our muscles contract, and the degree to which our nerves become excitable, both depend heavily on the presence of potassium in the right amount.


    So if somebody's sodium & chloride have always always been low, and potassium has always been right in the middle - what does that mean?

    How does this tie in to the body holding ammonia?
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Surprisingly, in my country the reference values for potassium are 3.5-4.4 mmol/L. I just had my value tested at 4.1, which the doctor interpreted as higher than average. Mind you, this level is with supplementing almost 2 grams daily, and stuffing myself with potassium rich foods.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adren,

    So think and imagine where you would be without all that potassium. So, sounds like you have found a stable level that will let you heal.
  11. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Freddd

    In your post #4 you say "ORDER OF STARTUP is important to prevent certain recognized problems"

    Q: what is order of start-up?

    Are there any additional symptoms of potassium deficiency other than those posted in your opening post? Ive not experienced any of these .... yet other than constipation but I have IBS in any event so this is a constant for me, plus Im only in week 2. Are cramps a sign or is that more magnesium deficiency (btw, I dont have cramps either but am wondering if that would be on sign)?

    Thanks
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    Something I've known for along time at sort of an unconscious level has grabbed my attention more lately. When methylfolate is started in the absence of sufficient mb12 in the CSF/CNS actual neurological damage can happen as SubAcute Combined Degeneration. I don't know how much the CNS/CSF lack of transport affects things, so many unknowns, but hycbl might not get enough mb12 into the brain to protect it. I would NOT start methylfolate before mb12. I could even make a case for starting mb12 for a couple of days before adding the Metafolin. This wasn't a matter of consideration when I started mb12. Also, adb12 needs to be started before l-carnitine fumarate, and both of those before D-ribose. Mb12 and Metafolin before SAM-e as these later things are dependent on the earlier. It might be helpful intead of the vitamin but not after the vitamin which might make it unnecessary.

    One of the things I noticed was how much worse reactions people had on foilinic acid and hycbl. Now we know some of it is paradoxical folate deficiency but some of it looks awfull much like neurological problems from effective folate and ineffective b12 and it didn't happen with mb12 and folic acid or Metafolin.

    So that is really all I meant. Get the basics going first and the essentials and leave the critical cofactors for adding later depending upon what hasn't worked up to snuff.
    Fred
  13. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    thanks Freddd


    Are there any additional symptoms of potassium deficiency other than those posted in your opening post? Ive not experienced any of these .... yet other than constipation but I have IBS in any event so this is a constant for me, plus Im only in week 2. Are cramps a sign or is that more magnesium deficiency (btw, I dont have cramps either but am wondering if that would be a sign)?

    Ive finished week 3 of the protocol (I take the full monty of your recommendations with TMG and SAMe commenced a week ago and everything else from inception.)

    I have pretty moderate brain fog now and I believe the brain fog has become slightly worse since commencing the protocol. I take 1 Methyl B12, 1/4 adb12 and 6 metafolin daily - although I just recall that I left the folate interstate on my travels and only received them again about 3 days ago so there was a pause of about a week there).

    The only supplement that I may be light on is the potassium but I appear not to have any K deficiency symptoms so have been supplementing at the 55mg - 110mg/day level (depending on whether I take one dose or two). Form is aspartate.

    Any suggestions on how to alleviate the brain fog (btw, this was one of my most debilitating symptoms - enough to impede my ability to work - I may have been able to work if I was in a job but the mental effort required to source new consulting contracts is a bridge to far...) .

    Thanks
  14. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Little Bluestem likes this.
  15. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Topaz,

    At a low level of potassium deficiency, I think we have to discover our own symptoms. For me, normally tight neck muscles become much worse, and I'll often get a headache that feels caused by muscle tension. It feels vise-like. Sometimes I get mild nausea (I often wake up with this.)

    Less often, I've gotten what I call "wild emotions." I over-react to everything, going into anger with little sides of sadness. This feels very much like my startle response to noise - it's a completely insane response to a simple trigger.

    Madie
  16. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I dont know about the emotions thing - I'll have to pay attention to that. The tightness for sure. Also for me, I notice an irritability -- I can't stand to sit still. I get figidty. It's not peaceful. It first comes to my consciousness as 'I don't feel peaceful' and then as "I feel fidgety - wish I could settle down and be peaceful', and finally - DUH! - 'Oh, I'm probably low potassium'. (That's when I notice the chest and neck tightness and sometimes headache (low potassium raises blood pressure).

    I still dont know that this has anything to do with methylation for me. I have been prone to electrolyte problems my whole life (VDR genetc defect for starters) and have been self medicating forever in my search for peace.
  17. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I agree with everything Freddd said about startup order for logical reasons. But I personally would add another one: take extra P5P (such as 50mg) before or at startup for awhile to drain away any high homocysteine you may have before you add methyls and risk temporarily driving it higher. The ONLY way to drain away homocysteine requires two enzymes that each require P5P AND the ability to pee (which can be compomised by some OTC drugs such as tylenol) - if you have inadequate kidney filtration you should be under a doctors care and should not be taking methylation subtances w/o a doctor's help. You cannot get rid of the neurotoxin homocysteine if your kidneys cant filter it out. *I* would (and did) buy a bottle of 50mg P5P and take it for at least 3 days before taking any methyls (in fact I would get a homocysteine test - $60 and if it was high I would take P5P longer before adding methyls - until it drained down in range, but if I was to guess I might have to guess 2 weeks to do so if I didn;t know how high my homocysteine was).

    It may be one bottle and you're done and the amount in your B complex is enough for you forever after. Or maybe not. I take it every day. But I think it is most important when you are coming from a state of high homocysteine.

    That's my opinion. Remember me? I'm the one with no genes like anybody elses. But I look at the biochemical pathway for methylation and I see ONLY ONE DRAIN. I'm basing this on logic, but it worked for me.

    Rydra.

    PS I also add some TMG because TMG can recycle homocysteine much faster than mB12 and mfolate. Look at the biochemistry -- on the mB12 and mFolate path there are TWO enzymes, on the BHMT (TMMG) path there is only one and you are done. I read that people who get the most TMG by diet get 2g so that can be a useful guide. There is a govt website listing the nutrient conent of all foods and in the last year they added betaine (TMG) so you can find out how much you get. If you dont eat a lot of fruits and veggies you may need to supplement. Studies have shown that many people cannot lower their homocysteine without it (I do not know what they tried to make such a claim - typically it would be B6 rather than P5P for instance, so I am not sure if the studies are correct or only suggestive).
  18. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    On the old WrongDiagnosis site MANY people said their brain fog was caused by hypothyroid and went away when they got their thyroids working properly. So check that. You need to look at T3. TSH is not an accurate reflection of thyroid status. It is merely the command TO the thyroid, not an output of the thyroid. Check out a good thyroid website like www.stopthethyroidmadness.com to see what tests you need to truly rule out a thyroid problem. Also www.lef.com publishes blood test ranges for the thyroid measurements that are far more accurate than lab test ranges. Lab test ranges include many with hyper and hypo thyroid as these are not filtered out. Life Extension looks at studies to determine ranges and they list many serious health problems associated with not having your thyroid right (much higher risk of heart incident, for instance).

    After that, you could try P5P. I rarely get brain fog and unlike most people here I take an additional 50mg P5P. This drains away the neurotoxin homocysteine (which canNOT be drained away any other way!). It's just a thought. Not sure if it would apply to brain fog but I recently came to suspect it might have a lot to do with some of the "startup symptoms" people experience. When you take methylations substances, you are adding methyls to what may be an already astronomically high homocysteine, without necessarily increasing the ability to drain it sufficiently (IF you take the B complex you are increasing the P5P a little but maybe not enough considering you are also increasing methyls (thus homocysteine) and many people have very high homocysteine going in).

    I took an extra 50mg P5P at startup and I also had been taking 100mg B6 all my life (so my homocysteine never got higher than 12).
    In those circumstance where the homocysteine is not too high and the P5P is a decent amount, TMG took care of it the few times I felt brain fog. TMG is like the stopcock to the methyl system to relieve pressure - since the BHMT (TMG) path needs only 1 enzyme to work whereas the mB1 and mfolate path requires 2 (and is thus slower). Many people cannot make their homocysteine go down adequately without TMG. I would not be taking methyls w/o being SURE the paths for getting RID of homocysteine are functioning well.

    But when I went hyperthyroid I had a buzzing in my brain like a hornet's nest. Those who were hypothyroid reported brain fog.

    Lastly I could mention that there is a product called Ginkgold (I think my Natures Way...whatever that manufacturer s with the green leaf) that has been proven to increase neural circulation. I can feel it clearing my head of pinched arteries from high blood pressure. Not sure but that it might help with brain fog.

    But if you have a thyroid problem and try these other things - they would just be bandaides. Better to get to the source of the problem.

    If this applies to you...cant say...these are just things to explore.
    Rydra
  19. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I dont want any of my posts about brain fog to detract from the title of this thread. I think that there is a potentially dangerous idea out there that "startup" or "detox" symptoms should be gritted through. I think that if your body is trying to tell you something, you should listen and it may save your life. You may have low potassium. You may have horrifically high homocysteine. Whoever started the "slow, slow, slow but steady" thread had the best idea. If it bothers you go slower. If that bothers you go slower yet. Look into safety issues like potassium and homocysteine levels. Get a few blood tests - it is your health! Do not persist in something that feels bad, listen to your body. That is my opinion. Be safe everyone.

    I used to be a marathon cyclist, a century cyclist. The guy who got me into it told me something surprising - he said the "no pain, no gain" addage was exactly wrong. The way to get better is to avoid pain - in that case, eat before you're hungry, drink before you're thirsty, start slow training and build up. I found it to be very true! Your body is talking to you! Listen to it!

    Rydra
  20. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I agree with this wholeheartedly. Can you believe it Rydra -- we actually agree on something! :)

    d.

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