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WARNING - LOW POTASSIUM IS DANGEROUS

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    When a person gets methylation going, even only partially, the single most dangerous side effect is dropping potassium. In the absence of kidney damage which people usually know about and certain drugs that cause the potassium to accumulate, low potassium is the odds on favorite after staerting methylation. As methylation starts up, no ifs ands or buts typically, in a day or less with the active protocol, when those symptoms hit on the 3rd day typically or a little later, it's virtually always potassium. This can get dangerous, how quickly is the only question. I have had enough disturbing communications in the past couple of weeks to issue this repeating the warnings.

    From Pubmed -
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001510/
    Hypokalemia

    Potassium - low; Low blood potassium

    Last reviewed: May 29, 2011.


    Hypokalemia is a lower-than-normal amount of potassium in the blood.


    Causes, incidence, and risk factors

    Potassium is needed for cells, especially nerve and muscle cells, to function properly. You get potassium through food. The kidneys remove excess potassium in the urine to keep a proper balance of the mineral in the body.

    Hypokalemia is a metabolic disorder that occurs when the level of potassium in the blood drops too low.

    Possible causes of hypokalemia include:
    Antibiotics (penicillin, nafcillin, carbenicillin, gentamicin, amphotericin B, foscarnet)

    Diarrhea (including the use of too many laxatives, which can cause diarrhea)

    Diseases that affect the kidneys' ability to retain potassium (Liddle syndrome, Cushing syndrome, hyperaldosteronism, Bartter syndrome, Fanconi syndrome)

    Diuretic medications, which can cause excess urination

    Eating disorders (such as bulimia)

    Eating large amounts of licorice or using products such as herbal teas and chewing tobaccos that contain licorice made with glycyrrhetinic acid (this substance is no longer used in licorice made in the United States)

    Magnesium deficiency

    Sweating

    Vomiting



    Symptoms

    A small drop in potassium usually doesn't cause symptoms. However, a big drop in the level can be life threatening.
    Symptoms of hypokalemia include:
    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), especially in people with heart disease

    Constipation

    Fatigue

    Muscle damage (rhabdomyolysis)

    Muscle weakness or spasms

    Paralysis (which can include the lungs)



    Signs and tests

    Your health care provider will take a sample of your blood to check potassium levels.

    Other tests might include:
    Arterial blood gas

    Basic or comprehensive metabolic panel

    Electrocardiogram (ECG)

    Blood tests to check glucose, magnesium, calcium, sodium, phosphorous, thyroxine, and aldosterone levels



    Treatment

    Mild hypokalemia can be treated by taking potassium supplements by mouth. Persons with more severe cases may need to get potassium through a vein (intravenously).

    If you need to use diuretics, your doctor may switch you to a form that keeps potassium in the body (such as triamterene, amiloride, or spironolactone).

    One type of hypokalemia that causes paralysis occurs when there is too much thyroid hormone in the blood (thyrotoxic periodic paralysis). Treatment lowers the thyroid hormone level, and raises the potassium level in the blood.


    Expectations (prognosis)

    Taking potassium supplements can usually correct the problem. In severe cases, without proper treatment a severe drop in potassium levels can lead to serious heart rhythm problems that can be fatal.


    Complications

    In severe cases, patients can develop paralysis that can be life threatening. Hypokalemia also can lead to dangerous irregular heartbeat. Over time, lack of potassium can lead to kidney damage (hypokalemic nephropathy).
    Adlyfrost, slayadragon and L'engle like this.
  2. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    This is critical information!! Thank you Freddd.

    In women who are still in their fertile years, the first full menstrual cycle after start up may be an ABSOLUTELY critical time for potassium. Feeling faint or nauseated can be signs of this, especially if the patient has a history of heavy periods. Symptoms of low potassium could possibly be felt in the luteal phase (the 14 or so days ) leading to menstruation. Nauseated in the evening during your PMS time? This could be low potassium.

    Having "rescue" potassium on hand in the car, at home, in your purse, etc. is prudent, wise, and possibly life-saving.

    Making your supervising doctor aware of this issue also educates them as to components of your own care that could seem otherwise mysterious.

    Bottom line for women in their fertile years --A heavy period could throw you down really really hard, and rather unexpectedly.

    If this occurs concurrently with 1-2 days of paradoxical folate deficiency, then you just might feel like you could die. REALLY.

    Paying attention to your own care, and taking time to do so is so very important!
    L'engle likes this.
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, all.

    I, too, want to encourage everyone to be careful about lowering potassium too much. I think that this issue is a good reason to go a little slower in restoring the methylation cycle function, and with it, the folate levels, which promote more rapid production of DNA and RNA, and hence more rapid cell proliferation and a greater demand for potassium.

    I realize that Freddd's views about this are different, and I understand that he and some others are not able to benefit from use of hydroxocobalamin, but I just want to note again that for those who can use it (and about two-thirds of the people in our clinical study apparently were able to, because they benefited significantly), use of hydroxocobalamin allows the cells of the body to maintain control over how fast the methylation cycle and the folate metabolism recover, and thus this can take place more slowly. I think this will allow the body to adjust its potassium inventory in a more controlled way. For those who must use methylcobalamin, I think that using smaller dosages would be a way to keep the potassium levels more normal during the process of recovery.

    In general, I have found that when dealing with a complex system, of which the human body is a prime example, it's not a good idea to make fast changes.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    As Rich mentions, a certain degree of caution is desireable. I feel it is better to do the mb12 and have the startup in a predictale manner, so that one is prepared to adjust to turning methylation on NOW, rather than some time unexpected in the next 6 months or not. MY OPINION is that knowing it is going to start in 2-4 days and be prepared to titrate potassium then and there, knowing it is going to start, is far safer. How many people are going to carry potassium with them all the time waiting for the startup that may never happen or may happen at any unexpected time. Further there is no evdidence at all that starting Hycbl before switching to mb12/adb12 reduces either the intensity or suddenness of startup. In fact everything points at the opposite, a more intense startup when it eventually does begin with more intense startup. Again, if one wants to start up slowly, start with crumbs of mb12/adb12 and slowly increase, a technique that some have had success with. And by crumbs, I mean 1/20th of a 1mg tablet, a literal crumb. That ensures that things will start, and slowly, limited by the minimal dose, not by the unpredictable ineffectiveness of hycbl. However, whether it is started slowly or quickly, it will start up in sections and even 10mcg may cause an unknown need for potassium, the same as an effective startup from hycbl. With the quantity of thousands of successful mb12 startups in which only very few people had serious startup low potassium problems and then only by ignorance of effects of potassium, the range is pretty well known. I need 1800mg a day and that is with a diuretic that is NOT potassium sparing. The hazard of low potassium is ignoring it, of calling it "detox" and not doing anything about it. Recognizing it and that it means increasing ones daily total potassium intake by 20-40% is really no big deal. Ignoring it, and like ignoring many things, it is unpleasant and potentially dangerous. I suspect that the anxiety over when it might start up by surprise spread over months and months is more problem than just knowing it is going to start in a few days and be prepared for it. I always took these startup effects as the SUCESS IS HERE flag. It signals healing has started. That is one reason I am healed now and able to do this. I took all those things as indicating healing and followed the trail. The literature has warned about having induced deficiencies by taking only 1 or 2 vitamins for decades, used to scare people away from vitamins. The warning applied to folic acid of course, to not start it without b12. However, cyanocbl is a worse excuse for b12 than folic acid is for folate and becasue of the poor effectiveness of both, probably limited order problems

    I suppose a case can be made for leaving people in active b12 and paradoxical folate deficiencies for the rest of their lives so they don't have to deal with healing and being healthy and the things that happen. Instead I will help identify these things and others as people find them. One of the things that bothers me, and I may have seen a couple of examples so far, nothing concrete but certainly suggestive, are people for whom, no doubt in the 1/3 of those who are wrirte-offs with hycbl, that subacute combined degeneration is worsened by not having an effective mb12 startup before or concurrently with Methylfolate startup. This only affects potentially an unknown percentage of the sickest, but it is also a very serious potential side effect. ORDER OF STARTUP is important to prevent certain recognized problems.

    So far we can recognize or suspect -

    Recognize:
    induced low potassium.
    paradoxical folate deficiency from folic acid
    paradoxical folate deficiency from folinic acid and vegetable food source folate
    induced folate deficiency from NAC, glutathione and whey
    showstopper deficiency of vit D
    showstopper deficiency of zinc
    showstopper deficiency of SAM-e
    showstopper deficiency of magnesium
    showstopper deficiency of l-carnitine fumarate
    worsened active b12 deficiency from hycbl
    worsened active b12 deficiency from cyanocbl

    Suspect:

    Showstopper deficiency of Vitamin C, subclinical scurvy or worse.

    paradoxical folate deficiency from folic acid - worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration

    paradoxical folate deficiency from folinic acid vegetable food source folate - worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration

    induced folate deficiency from NAC, glutathione and whey - worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration

    and in conjuction with methylfolate worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration induced by inadequate neurological activity of hycbl

    and in conjuction with methylfolate worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration induced by inadequate neurological activity of cycbl
  5. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    I think my recent k-drops were possible showstoppers.

    They occurred as a great convergence:
    primarily my own ignorance (I had so many months of morning sickness that nausea was merely something to be dismissed as trivial..........NO MORE!)
    my docs' ignorance........but this is just generally accepted as the way things are
    my own cycle issues
    my possible re-re-start symptoms kicking the potassium switch to "ON" at the same time as the other issue.

    Now, if I can just nail down whether that one stupid Diet Coke yesterday cause today's stomach issues.....
  6. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Again,
    thank you to both thinkers here.

    Words from you both help make me better and a better patient.

    It is so good to feel better.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rosebud,

    I want to mention that Nutrasweet gives me totally terrible rip-roaring headaches. I haven't tried any aspartame since the mid to late 80s prior to my crash at the end of 87.
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I believe I almost killed myself yesterday, due to potassium deficiency. After having supplemented 1-2g per day for weeks, I was having severe diarrhea and cloudy urine, and so I thought maybe I was overdoing the potassium and took a break from supplementing, instead eating lots of potassium rich foods.

    I felt reasonally OK yesterday, and went for some exercise in the gym. I very fast felt very sick; my heart was jumping all over the place (felt like arythmia), and I felt like I was gonna collapse. At one point I wondered whether I would make it home.

    After I got home I took 500mg potassium, and half hour later I ate a banana. A few hours later I wasn't feeling much better, and again this thought of overdoing the potassium entered my mind. So I tried taking 1000mg calcium, with two teaspoons of sea salt. This was a very bad idea. Tachycardia and blood pressure skyrocketed, and I felt very sick again. 500mg potassium and another banana plus half a cantaloupe, and I started to feel a little better.

    I feel better today. It's afternoon here, and I've already taking 1200mg of potassium, plus two bananas, one avocado and several other veggies and meats. It seem like I'm producing cells at an incredible rate, or my electrolyte levels are just very unstable. I have low cortisol and POTS, and because of some degree of autonomic dysfunction, I am probably not controlling my electrolyte levels very well.

    I have been taking 10mg mb12, quarter tab adb12 (source naturals) and 3mg methylfolate daily. I think I'm going to reduce the dose to about half of that for now.

    Every time I think I've overdone potassium, it's just the opposite: I'm not getting enough. Looks like I need about 2000mg supplemental, 3 bananas, half a cantaloupe, an avocado, some potatoes and tomatoes, and I still feel borderline low.

    I constantly feel sluggish and brain fogged, shifts in tingling levels, muscle twitching, cold extremities, and my cloudy urine is back (don't know the cause). I just can't seem to find a level of potassium where I feel normal. Then again, I wasn't feeling normal before starting the protocol.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    Part of the problem is how to know just fast our body is cranking out cells. I had my worst occurances when I started l-carnitine fumarate. I had been on mb12 for almost 2 years. I had been on adb12 more than 1 year. Healing was flat. I started taking the l-carnitine fumarate. bang. Suddenly I'm putting on muscle at a totally outrageous rate. The problem is that it isn't limited to mb12. It can happen with the "last in" of the most limiting factors. I had low potassium with EACH of these items; mb12, adb12, SAM-e, L-carnitine fumarate, Zinc at the least. I also have a little bout each time I come out of any paradoxical folate deficiency period but that may be from first edema and then dumping water with potassium and only maybe becasue of renewed cell formation. I also have had reports of low potassium as a result of Vit D, magnesium and possibly Vit C. If it were limited to the vitamin mb12 then it would be much simpler. But it isn't. That is a simplistic assumption. It happens over and over at each degree of healing increase with whatever is the most limiting factor. Also, low potassium can also happen when dropping water from monthly cycle, then the women have another hazard, as Rosebud has pointed out. I don't know of how we can avoid healing and still heal. After several years of 1200mg a day or more additional of potassium, my level had made it up to an unprecedented 4.5. Then I had a paradoxical folate episode, a nasty one. It was down at 3.7 and I was having daily problems, the next time I was teste, becasue I couldn't believe how much potassium I actually needed.

    Adreno, I found it worked best if I could find a base level of potassium with my daily vitamins that keeps me mostly out of trouble and pretty steady and then just have to take an additional 300mg 2 or 3 times a day if needed. Becasue it is water soluable, I find multiple smaller doses works better than huge swings.
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I have been taking fumarate for a long time, along with smaller doses of methylcobalamin and methylfolate. So maybe I have experienced the same increased healing rate as you did, when I upped the dose of the mb12 and mf.

    I'll reduce to 2.5mg mb12, and 1mg mf, twice daily, along with quarter tab adb12 and 500mg fumarate once daily. As long as I need extra potassium, things are moving in the right direction, I'm guessing.

    I also bought myself a pulse watch, which I will use to keep an eye on heart rate during exercise. And from now on I'll bring potassium to the gym.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    As it appears that a good 75% or so of the effect of mb12 takes place with the first 150mcg or so, I doubt that reducing to 2.5mg sublingual (say 500mcg +-) will make any noticable difference on potassium. There is not a lot of grading one can do as it appears that the cell formation for any given "level" turns on when all the needed items are present. So some level is either "stalled" or it turns on.
  12. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    I can imagine that Fredd - why with the minimal tests in the UK is the body leaching potassium (urine glowed with it) No change of life long diet.
  13. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I thought we agreed that higher doses causes more healing than lower, which one should think would translate to deeper drop in potassium. If healing is an on/off switch, why would we take higher doses? For penetration?
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Recognize:
    induced low potassium.
    paradoxical folate deficiency from folic acid
    paradoxical folate deficiency from folinic acid and vegetable food source folate
    induced folate deficiency from NAC, glutathione and whey
    showstopper deficiency of vit D
    showstopper deficiency of zinc
    showstopper deficiency of SAM-e
    showstopper deficiency of magnesium
    showstopper deficiency of l-carnitine fumarate
    worsened active b12 deficiency from hycbl
    worsened active b12 deficiency from cyanocbl

    Suspect:

    Showstopper deficiency of Vitamin C, subclinical scurvy or worse.

    paradoxical folate deficiency from folic acid - worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration

    paradoxical folate deficiency from folinic acid vegetable food source folate - worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration

    induced folate deficiency from NAC, glutathione and whey - worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration

    and in conjuction with methylfolate worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration induced by inadequate neurological activity of hycbl

    and in conjuction with methylfolate worsened or triggered Subacute combined degeneration induced by inadequate neurological activity of cycbl

    As all these things are either identifiable or likely identified, and much of it comes from research, why is there not more recognition. One looks up all these things like mb12 and Metafolin and so on, nowhere do they warn against hypokalemia. I suspect two casues. first that they are in the "everything has side effects" mode and don't really pay attention to what it is and second, there is no realization that people can be in lots of trouble even if not fatal in the potassium range 3.5-4.3 despite being "normal" and "in range". And of course the NAC side effects, induced folate deficiency, are completely invisible to those doing the Cerefolin -NAC study and routinely reported as "side effects" without realizing the reason of the side effects. That strikes me as a flaw in how research is done or a flaw in the mindset of those doing it. Or maybe the researchers are not systems analysts and miss all the interactions in these complcateed systems and so do single item or 2 item tests in a broken biological system and have no idea what they are doing. They have their theories to defend and prove rahter than observe waht is happening and chnging the teories appropriately. This is where the legacy millstone around the neck of 60 years of cyacbl, hycbl and folic acid research leaves us, with the illusion that we understand how these things work.

    So in another 70 years or so, say 10 cycles of research or so, to come to an understanding of mb12, adb12 and Metafolin as individual items, another 70 years to understand each pair, another 70 years for each triad ad infinitum. So when are they going to understand something as complex as the active b12 protocol? 200 years? 500 years? I and everybody needs healing NOW. To go from the simplified protocol to the active b12 protocol is what, about 30 research cycles as they adjust one factoer or another, detect low potassium, paradocical folate deficiency and so on. So when would the protocol many of us are doing now be better understood? Would it be in time for our great great great grandchildren to maybe benefit or even a few "greats" farther dfown the line?

    If it is SO OBVIOUS to us taking these vitamins, why is it so invisible to the doctors? Why isn't this an "of course"? Where does this studied ignorance come from? I worked in an environment with many of these people through the years. What so often happens is that some renegades, like you and me, come along and start looking for things from a different viewpoint. We actually think vitamins can do something. When I tell doctors that I have a questionaire that in combination with a single b12 tablet will cause a notable response in 2 hours or less in selected persons they are kind of "really"? How can a vitamon cause a signoficant response in 2 hours. They don't work that fast. However history tells us that the docs got in trouble in the 50s for paying attention to that response with b12 so they had to ignore patient responses.

    As a software developer I worked on the active b12 protocol from a very different viewpoint. Instead of having one unchangeable set of items, I did many mini-trials to settle on the dose of mb12, brand of mb12, sublingual time, adb12. type of carnitine, dose of carnitine, injectable b12 dosage amounts and timeing, Metafolin amounts, times, with and without meals, etc trying to pin down each variation. The same with gltuathione to a more limited degree. When it worsened my Subacute combined degneration it was time to quit, not try to find out if there is a safe and effective dose to do something I didn't appear to need doing. So within 9 years of a "feeding" trial, there were maybe 2-3 dozen separate cycles on various items in conjinction with the entire set as it was known at the time. I looked for each "next item" that kicked off more healing. You guessed it. Low potassium was the flag I was recognizing and it ALWAYS pointed the way to more healing. That is the thing we are all looking for, healing. As I did this like debugging a computer program, I did many of what would have been 5 year research cycles in a few weeks each. Based on experience I knew what I was looking for wasn't subtle. The body starts healing immediately upon having everything it needs for the specific task. This became quickly obvious.

    I think that the anti nutrition stance of the AMA and other bodies set the tone with "anything vitamins appear to do is placebo". I doubt that any of those people watched how quickly scurvy, beriberi and pellagra could turn around with the right nutrients. They gained a false idea of vitamins from all the inactive vitamirs used instead of the real thing. Denial runs deep. So now to protect 70 years of research we get Codex Allimentarius to prevent embarassments like me who happen to notice this very rapid effectiveness of real vitamins by banning them. I don't know how real that idea is, it might be or it just might be the chemical and drug industires protecting their profit centers from those genuinely effective active vitamins by locking them up as prescritpion only at 10-20 times the price. In any case the only vitamins allowed as vitamins under that treaty essentially bans all active and effective vitamins in vitamins of effectve strength.Even the FDA enforcement of "must be in use as vitamin formula in 1992 would get rid of adb12, mb12, Metafolin, omega3 fishoils. p5p, reserveritol, and so on. Going through life ignorant and sick because the real vitamins are banned would be hell. It was for me and it was just that the trinity of mb12, adb12 and methylfolate weren't available. If my hypothesis that CSF and FMS and a bunch of other chronic diseases are all man caused/augmented by pseudo vitamins such as folic acid, cyanocbl and hydroxycbl and were rare prior to the onset of these vitamins, the whole game is changed. However, that hypothesis doesn't have to be true for the active b12 protocol to work against a broad range of problems.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Enid,

    I don't understand your post. Can you please explain it to me?
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    You are forgetting the "level" thing. The fastest cell duplicating tissues, ie epithelium; our skin, stomach, intestines, mouth, lungs are both the first things noticalbly affected when sutdown occurs from lack of Metafolin and also come back up soonest.

    Higher doses can penetrate deeper, be available a longer part of the day etc. At a certain point the mb12 suddenly penetrates the CNS and other tissues may also have that sudden penetration effect. The effect is NOT linear. With each doubling above that base amout, each doubling appears to go about half way from where the level of healing is to 100%. So it is a dininishing returns thing that approqaches a limit. 5mg sublingual does more healing than 1mg but NOT 5 times as much, maybe only 50% more or however that works out. Alos, other factors become the most limiting factor, ie potassium, l-carnitine, adb12, zinc, magnesium, A, D, C etc.
  17. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Fredd your post 15. In my early days for some unknown reason on an unchanged life long diet my urine shot to neon yellow. All my Doc bemused could say "never met except too many bananas" There were many other problems at that time too. Just feel this an indication/warning of internal "chemistry" gone awry. Why should one be losing potassium on little more at that time than being on recognised ME supplements (eg vitamins - nothing remotely serious).

    I later heard this an adrenal problem so tried supplemental support - eventually relief.
  18. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Until I started the protocol recently my urine was neon yellow. For me it was b complex as when I stopped my urine is now fairly pale. I am also peeing more now I'm on the protocol for some reason.
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    The RDA for potassium is roughly 3500-4700 mgs. In general, do you think we need more than that during this rebuilding/healing process?
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Enid,

    B2, alone or in a b-complex, will make the urine a "neon" yellow. Potassium is colorless. B12 darkens it towards a darker yellow, then with more, orange or even red. If no yellow pink towards magenta.

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