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Wahls diet - oxolate question

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by mobyjoby, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. mobyjoby

    mobyjoby

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    I am interested in the Wahls diet for supporting mitochondria and yet on a thread somewhere I saw someone mention that oxolates can inhibit mitochondrial function and now I am confused as the Wahls diet seems to involve a fair amount of oxolates.

    I am a bit scattered in my thinking at the moment and wondered if anyone could add anything to clear up my confusion??

    Also has anyone found much improvement on the diet??

    Thanks

    Jo
     
  2. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I feel better on the wahls diet. I was paleo for 4 - 5 years prior but realized I wasn't eating enough veggies and fruit
    in Feb 2012.

    Wahls is basically paleo with emphasis on fruits and veggies + fermented foods + sea veggies + bone broths.
    All good for us as long as we watch for personal food intolerances.

    I've been on the lo ox diet for 4 - 5 years. I started it after getting a kidney stone and needing lithostripsy.

    Neither diet gave me more energy or muscle strength. Adenosylcobalamin does but it's short lived.
    Same goes for p5p and juicing. I seem to
    need these from time to time but daily use for an extended period doesn't make any difference.

    I wouldn't know how to tell if my mitochondria were affected by either diet other than by looking at muscle strength and
    energy.

    Imho, while I understand the concept behind researching mitos and oxalates, I didn't see any relationship. Like
    much of the scientific research we see, imho, it's a long way from being useful information. And may not accurately
    describe all the factors involved.

    I just started the mast cell protocal and it's helping my allergies and fatigue so far. Kow ..

    Tc .. X
     
    GhostGum and Dreambirdie like this.
  3. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi X--What is the mast cell protocol? Is there a link you can refer me to?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  4. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Of
    Hi dreambirdie,

    I started a thread here on allergy / mast cell treatments. After 7 years, call me "slow" lol, I finally gave up on finding and eliminating
    foods I was reacting to when I realized that I'm just going to become intolerant or allergic to the new ones I
    start eating.

    I'm still on the wahls diet tho. It's healthy and I like the food. And I don't think I could take enough drugs that would allow me to eat gluten, dairy, corn, soy or chemicals. But I may try it someday.

    There's some great info in that thread but I don't understand it all. If you need more info you can follow the links or references to other threads.

    But basically, it's just a matter of taking enough allergy meds or supplements THROUGHOUT the day and night to control symptoms.


    I started with wal-zyr (walgreens zyrtec) because I read that zyrtec was the most helpful non drowsy h1 for swelling. It was cheaper than brand name zyrtec. I already know that 20 mg a day won't stop
    my swelling tho so I'm keeping children's dye free Benadryl on hand. And taking it at night for now.

    So far, my orthostatic intolerance isn't forcing me to lay down most of the day and several of my trigger foods for fm and pelvic pain
    aren't triggering pain. Chocolate is back in my diet .. Woohoo ..

    The downside is that my cognitive abilities come and go. I can be as sharp as I was pre cfs but it doesn't last long. They're better overall with the meds tho.

    I'm trying really hard not to go wild here .. Haha .. Tc .. X
     
  5. mobyjoby

    mobyjoby

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    Thanks xchocoholic :)
    did you manage to stay low oxolate while on wahls then? I guess that may not be as difficult as it sounds when you are already used to which foods are low but it seems quite overwhelming to me. Mind you knowing where to start with wahls seems overwhelming just on its own :confused:
    Jo x
     
  6. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Okay X, thanks. The drugs would not work for me. Benadryl is the next best thing to psychosis as far as my brain is concerned. :alien:

    I am glad it works for you, tho.

    I am not eating a strict Wahls diet anymore. My body did not like to eat a mountain of greens every single day. I am still more or less paleo, but I do eat rice and potatoes, and lots of mushrooms lately. YUM.
     
  7. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi dreambirdie,

    I understand several others are taking supplements for their allergies instead of drugs. I just started with drugs
    but may switch to supplements later.

    lol .. Mountain of greens .. I hear you. I don't stick to dr wahls plan but I eat mostly fruits and veggies. It's
    just an easy reference point for explaining my diet.

    I haven't tried mushrooms yet but I still don't feel well from potatoes or rice. I think it's a hypoglycemia
    problem for me.

    Tc .. X
     
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  8. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    My Urologist has me taking Calcium Citrate for oxalate level. It binds to the oxalate in the gut and takes it out. I always have stones so that is important. I also take a half of a potassium citrate prescription. It is mostly citrate. Very important for kidney stones.
     
  9. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi jo,

    I found it confusing too. Not to mention that oxalate values can vary for the same food depending on
    how it's grown. Haha ..

    I just looked at the list of foods for the foods in my diet that were high ox and removed
    those. I was already paleo which helped a lot. But I was eating too many nuts and waaaay too much raw spinach.

    From what I've seen we get a lot of new people on the trying low ox board who were eating too many
    high ox foods and started to have urinary problems.

    Imho, going on the common food intolerance elimination diet (gluten, dairy, soy, corn and chemicals) is the best place to start. Just don't load up on high ox foods or a lot of gfcf junk food. Those nut milks
    and flours are one of the big culprits here.

    Boiling hi ox foods lowers oxalates. So you can boil carrots, potatoes, etc. I still feel weak eating these after doing this tho so
    I stopped eating these. The reason I became paleo was because grains, legumes and root veggies made me weak
    whereas greens and other veggies don't. I suspect my hyperinsulinemia is the problem. But it could be
    a mast cell problem too.

    Fwiw, I realized that I was only getting pelvic / vulvodynia pain from certain high ox foods not all high ox foods like I was told. So pelvic pain isn't just
    from high ox foods. Wal-zyr is helping this. I just have to work out when to take it so I'm not reacting.

    This info is in my mast cell treatment thread but you may have to track it down. I can't give links on my tablet.

    Tc .. X
     
  10. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi sally,

    For some reason I never felt well on any calcium I tried. It seemed to cause my body to stiffen up.
    I can take magnesium which also binds to oxalates tho. I just can't take enough magnesium to bind
    to all oxalates without getting the runs. That's why I watch my oxalates. I wouldn't trust that I had enough
    calcium or magnesium on board to bind to all the oxalates I ate either.

    Like most things, the low ox diet isn't complicated once you've read the list a few times. Tc .. X
     
  11. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I keep forgetting to say that the people on the trying low ox board refer to dumping oxalates as any negative
    reaction they get out of the blue. These can be neuro, digestive, skin rashes, etc, etc.

    Personally I've never dumped and think their reactions could be from several sources. Like eating
    junk foods made with low ox grains. These foods will cause candida and blood glucose problems.

    Or they're reacting to taking too many supplements. Loading up on biotin is common.

    Or they're eating foods that they don't realize that they're intolerant to.

    Or they're extremely gluten, dairy, soy, etc intolerant and getting cross contaminated and don't realize it.

    That's just my opinion tho. Tc .. X
     
  12. mobyjoby

    mobyjoby

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    xchocoholic - thanks for all the info. Is the low ox board on Phonix rising or somewhere else? and where did you find a good list of high ox foods?

    Jo x
     
  13. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    You're welcome.


    I'd go to www.lowoxalateinfo.com or google yahoo tryinglowoxalate. You have to join
    the yahoo group. Supposedly the yahoo group is the better option but like I said above
    I'm seeing some serious flaws in the logic about dumping. And imho, eating junk food
    won't help your body heal from inflamation.

    Also, I don't think either site mentioned mast cells until I started posting about it on the yahoo board.
    This should've been a top priority imho. I certainly wasted too many years blaming oxalates when it's obvious that
    mast cells are involved here too. tc .. X
     
  14. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi X-Choco,

    Have you heard about Catherine Tamaro's alternative theory to the low oxalate hypothesis? She believes that lowering oxalates isn't the best way to 'fix' the problem, but instead suggests that not enough of vitamin K, and also A and D, are the reasons oxalates cause problems in the first place. At least I THINK that's the idea...

    Here's a page with her hypothesis (from 2006):

    http://gutresearch.com/v1.html

    And here's a discussion of both protocols, gets interesting about 1/3rd down the page:

    http://www.infantreflux.org/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=10636

    Hope this helps. I'm still wading through it, but it does seem to make sense....... :)

    d.
     
  15. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi danny,

    I've seen Susan Owens, DAN researcher from fsu, argue that the low ox diet is really the best option. You can find her opinion
    on this on the yahoo trying low oxalate board.

    I'm not trained in biochemistry
    and chose to believe Susan on this. But that's just an uneducated bet on someone I trust because of her extensive research in oxalates.

    I've never tried taking k. I've been taking 250 mg Solgar b6 + doctor's best chelated magnesium for pelvic
    pain for about a year now. Info on the use of this combo is in the vulvodynia info. It's been helping me. But taking
    Wal-zyr, etc has helped too. In other words I need them both if I'm going to eat chocolate or nuts. I haven't looked
    at the other supplements recommended for vulvodynia / pelvic pain yet.

    I know from recently experimenting with chocolate and nuts (cashews, pistachios and almonds) that I really can't eat very many high ox foods eithout getting pelvic
    pain or uti symptoms. It's too early for me to tell if this is a mast cell or ox reaction. I've yet to add h2s.

    And even the allergy meds aren't enough if I go absolutely nuts and eat a whole chocolate bar in a day. (party on ; ) ) . My reactions simply aren't nearly as painful. I've gone from a 10 to a 2 at it's worst. And it never lasts. Kow.

    I also have a history of kidney stones so I'm not willing to play around too much with getting more.
    I only found out that oxalates were implicated in pelvic pain when I had a stone and was told to go on the low ox diet. Much to my surprise, and my gynecologists, (ha!) after a few months my pelvic pain vanished. Whether it's a mast cell or ox problem or both, I don't know yet.

    I hope this is clear. It makes sense in my head. Lol.

    Tc .. X
     
  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Totally understand X. Just throwing it out there. I was on the low oxalate group for awhile, and found some of it helpful, but like with many boards, it seemed (as you also suggest) that it's not the whole picture. And of course I don't know if Tamaro can see or address the whole picture either. I think she says the kidney issues may also be a result of insufficient K2, because the K2 is needed to help with both oxalates and calcium.

    Asklipia has several threads here on PR about how K2 has helped her...

    :)
     
  17. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks danny,

    I'll put researching k on my todo list. All the researching in the last few years has taken it's toll on me so
    since I'm doing ok for now I'm taking a breather. Tc .. X
     

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