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Wahls diet, mitochondria

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by madietodd, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    Thanks Madietodd, appreciated

    Re bone broth. I made some a year back from beef bones and thought it would be tasty I don't know whether I was doing it wrongly, but mine tasted disgusting. Know it's very important though so must get my lovely carer to try making some again.

    Also Madietodd is it ok to buy bulk bones for dogs? On Jdj's new Facebook group for the wahl's diet she said a study has shown many bones can be contaminated with lead so I presume organic may be less risky, but not risk free?
  2. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    I would only use bones from grass-fed animals from a trusted source.
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  3. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    I think she evolved it over time, to what is healthier, and to make it a bit simpler.


    I saw her say 3 cups leafy greens or cruciferous too, but I am wondering if she changed it to 3 cups of only leafy greens. (Harder for me to do, and I believe it's healthier.) Google only showed one or two mentions of cruciferous and it was years old.

    I think when she said green or cruciferous, it was before she was saying 3 cups sulfur. Some (all?) cruciferous are sulfur so that is my interpretation. (Broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower at least.)
  4. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    All I have to go on is her book, and it's confusing. I started this thread to get some help figuring her recommendations out; I'm no expert.

    I used frozen dog bones from Whole Foods because that's the best I can get here. You want to roast them first, 350 degrees for about a half hour, then crock pot them for 2-3 days. The information I'm finding (not from Wahls) says 2lbs bones makes a gallon of bone broth, which is a ton. I have a small crock pot, so I make it super concentrated and dilute it after cooking. I forgot to roast the bones before my last batch, and I'm using the broth for cooking, not drinking.

    I've probably already said this, but I'm not obsessing about details. My general thinking is to eat 1/3 colorful foods, 1/3 cabbage family, and 1/3 other vegetables including onion and mushrooms. Some seaweed every day, some algae, brewer's yeast when I remember, fish oil or flax. Bone broth and proteins.

    Since the big shift for me is adjusting to the quantity of vegetables, that's where I've put my attention. If I eat 7 cups in a day, well good for me! As long as the quantity keeps me from being hungry for not-allowed foods, I call it a win.
    L'engle, anniekim and Hanna like this.
  5. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi madietodd. I don't tolerate kelp very well, every since my overdose with the iodine at the end of 2009. I wish I could find some wakame that's organic, as I seemed to be okay with that in small amounts. If you come across that, or sea palm, or kombu, please let me know. Thanks!
  6. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    In case this is useful:

    According to Nutritiondata.com, a serving of kale = 70 grams =1 cup chopped, and a serving of fruit = 140 grams = 1 cup.

    This morning I mixed fruits equally in the 3 colors, all frozen except some cantaloupe. I weighed 70 grams of fruit and 70 grams of frozen kale into my blender, added water and a few drops of stevia. I find this delicious, so I plan to used this 1:1 ratio for smoothies throughout the day to get my leafy greens.

    3 of these give me my 3 servings of leafy greens for the day, while leaving me 3 70 gram servings of fruit to blend with algae, nutritional yeast, and a green drink powder if I want to substitute in for other vegetables.

    A few days ago I cooked a ton of mushrooms and 2lbs red onions. I steamed some chard yesterday and it was great with some mushroom and onion stirred in.

    Finally, I've been on the diet for 2 weeks and I'm not kicking at night any more. I've been taking magnesium for that for years.
  7. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I was on the Wahls Diet for close to 2 weeks, doing okay overall with it, though not eating quite as many vegies as she does. Then, yesterday, I got SO HUNGRY that I could not stop eating. In the late afternoon, after taking a short walk, I came home ravenous and binged out on half a jar of cashew butter, followed by an entire pot of squash/coconut soup, (enough for 4 people!), half of a big trout, 2 cups of collard greens, and a large sweet potato.

    I could not move off the couch for three hours afterwards. I felt like I'd eaten an elephant. o_O:p:p

    We had a change in the weather the last two days. It suddenly got much colder and very windy, and my body really craved and needed some carbos for energy and heat. At this point I don't think I'll be able to do a strict Wahls Diet. It looks like I need more carbohydrates than she recommends.
  8. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    Make sure you get enough healthy fats. If you get enough, you should need less carbs. I don't think she emphasizes the fats enough. Paleo does.

    That said, I believe most of us (because of ME/CFS) burn more calories and carbs.
    madietodd and merylg like this.
  9. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I had this problem with the Wahls Diet before. I am a fast oxidizer, so that might have something to do with it.

    I don't think the fats are enough to compensate for the lack of carbos. I was eating avocados, nuts, coconut oil and goat butter, but I still became ravenous.

    When my body screams at me this loudly, I listen. Forcing things always has bad results for me.
    rosie26, merylg and SickOfSickness like this.
  10. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    I have never tried low-carb. I would have the same result as you.

    Healthy binge :)
    madietodd, Dreambirdie and merylg like this.
  11. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I don't think that's off the diet. I try to eat what she recommends, but the bottom line for me to stop eating all of the things that are BAD for me. Nothing you ate is on her forbidden list.

    I'm in Florida for 3 days to see Dr. Rey, and I brought all of my food. So it's canned trout and salmon, nuts, dried fruit and dried vegetables, and healthy-but-instant soups......which have rice noodles. You know what? It's good enough.

    It actually sounds like you're doing a great job.
  12. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    @madietodd Thanks. I think it's good enough too.

    I have not eaten anything "really bad" for me since the late 1970s. I have eaten quite a bit of grains at times, before I learned that THAT was "bad" for me. All this politics around the good and bad of eating can make me a bit delirious at times. :alien:

    My intention was to attempt the non starchy vegies in the full-bore version of the Wahls Diet, but honestly it's just not possible for me to do that unless I lay in bed all day. And the purpose is to get OUT of bed, which more carbos help me do.

    I have not eaten much at all today. I think I ate nearly 2 days worth of food yesterday. Looking forward to a light bowl of soup and some leftover fish.
    SickOfSickness and xchocoholic like this.
  13. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I've seen a lot of Paleos who need the carbs. Me too. They typically recommend eating sweet potatoes if someone needs
    more carbs.

    I've been trying something new lately. I'm eating meat by itself and appear to be better able to digest it. I even had some
    beef for the first time in a couple of years.
    : )

    For broths I use bones with meat. The others just didn't taste good.

    Does anyone know why sometimes the broth is thick and sometimes it's watery ?
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  14. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Forgot to say, I'm cutting myself more slack this time as far as how strict I am.
    It's just not worth beating myself up when I'm just tired and hungry.
  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    ME/CFS patients have been shown to have a gene upregulated after exertion which inhibits lipolysis. If this is happening to you, then it simply might not be possible for you to do low-carb, since low-carb relies on breaking down fats for fuel.
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  16. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    My thoughts about organ meat: in the wild, after predators make a kill, the organs are always eaten first - liver, heart, kidney, spleen, thymus, pancreas. The muscles and skin are always left over for the scavengers. Why ? Cos the organs are the most nutritionally dense part of any animal and animals have evolved to know this instinctively. This should really be one of the main points of the Paleo diet. We humans have inverted this process or I would say more so here in the US becos in the Old World organs are still highly valued eg liver and thymus (sweetbread) and some even seen as a delicacy eg tongue. I am not so sure that what has happened in the American diet is a good thing, just look at soda, fries, milkshakes and donuts.

    My question though is about the bone broth, is this to make bone marrow soup bcos if it is it is very very nutritious and stimulates the immune system. I know that dissolved cartilage (hydrolysed gelatin) can help alot too so I was just wondering about the rationale behind this.
  17. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Yes, the bone marrow and the cartilage are exactly the point. Other bones might be added for flavor when making beef broth. Beef broth is cooked for 2-3 days because it takes that long to extract the marrow.
  18. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    well in that case there is shark liver oil extract (goes back to organs again) and u want it standardised for alkylglycerols. It's not as troublesome as making bone marrow broth cos I have done this b4 too in the wintertime.

    Also hope you guys know that you get the most marrow from the hind legs of cows, its the yellow mushy oil in the middle of the bone. It's delicious. Most other parts of the bones don't have much marrow at all if you are buying it to make bone marrow broth. If you buy the shank with the bone in you can see it in the middle of the bone.

    With the shank, It does not take that long to extract the marrow, you can see it dissolve as you cook it, the other elements that come out is the red marrow that float and cluster around. Maybe about 40 min for the size of a regular pot.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
    Dreambirdie and madietodd like this.
  19. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    But this is comparing an organ (liver) to bone marrow?
  20. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    it's the same active ingredient in bone marrow that you are looking for in SLO, its the alkylglycerol that stimulate the immune system and the production of white blood cells. If you look it up, they actually use one in place of the other for chemo treatments.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013

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