The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Vitamin D tests -- Bingo, you guys were right.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by picante, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    I did this on several people's suggestion, including @Sushi, @Gondwanaland, @adreno. Just got my results:

    Vit. D 25-Hydroxy 53.4 ng/mL [range 32-100]
    Calcitriol 1,25 di-OH 103.1 pg/mL [range 10-75]

    At this point, I have stopped all oral vit. D (over a month before this test), and I've been taking a daily dose of 3,000 iu in my transdermal B12 oil. That's it.

    I have VDR Bsm +/+, like @Sporty, who had a thread about feeling worse on vit. D. And @Valentijn warned me that VDR Bsm does not really have a big effect on Vit. D retention.

    This article calls my situation "Dysregulated vitamin D metabolism": https://chronicillnessrecovery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=176

    So I see that it can aggravate my Hashimoto's, and it can increase inflammation (which I have). Would this also raise my EBV antibodies? They are in the stratosphere.
     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes:
    3,552
    It did with my anti-thyroglobulin antibodies :meh: But I just had to supplement, my 25OH levels were 12! Now they are 30-40ish.
     
  3. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes:
    722
    This is really interesting. Everyone tests for 25-Hydroxy, but rarely for the active 1,25-Hydroxy which is the active hormone. It's sort of like testing for t4 and not t3.

    In any case, there is a group of people who advocate something called the marshall protocol which is predicated on avoiding vitamin d. However there is much controversy about this protocol so I won't go much into, other than others have found issues with high levels of d.

    I suspect most are too low in vitamin d, like gond. I wonder how your body would respond to sunlight only when regulating vitamin d levels.
     
    picante likes this.
  4. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    Good question, since I always feel much better in the summer when I'm outside gardening a lot. And I've always assumed I was low, especially in winter (in Montana), so for years I've taken 5000 iu (oral) in the summer and increased it in the winter.
    This demonstrates the importance of testing, that's for sure. And I'm convinced that the 3000 iu transdermal is better absorbed than 5000 iu oral D3.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  5. Sporty

    Sporty Senior Member

    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    22
    Essex, UK
    What inflammation symptoms do you have ?
     
  6. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    I have lower back inflammation. My S-I joint hurts and sometimes I get sciatica.

    Lowering my T3 dose (thyroid) helped enough to make me functional again, but I still couldn't sit down for more than 10 minutes. That went on for over two years. Then I started Freddd's protocol in October, and it subsided about 95%. It started to increase in December, which is when I started the B12 oils with the 3000 iu of D3 in them.
     
  7. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes:
    722
    What kind of b12 where in the oils?
     
  8. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    The same kinds I was already taking sublingually. One oil is straight MeB12, and the other is an Ad/MeB12 blend.
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes:
    3,552
    What should I conclude from DH's results?

    25 - HIDROXI VITAMINA D
    28,0 ng/mL (> 30 ng/mL)

    VITAMINA D 1,25 DIHIDROXI
    41,75 pg/mL (26,1 - 95,0 pg/mL)
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2015
  10. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes:
    722
    The 25 hydroxy is low. Generally you want to be above 40 or 50. Are you supplementing with D?
     
  11. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    And this is at the end of the summer, too. The range they gave on my test was 32 - 100 ng/mL for 25 Hydroxy D. Your lab is only giving the low end, I guess.

    I'm still scratching my head over mine, but it looks like your husband needs some D3, and he's not over-converting.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  12. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    I just got my re-check results, so here's the comparison between January (after a month on the B12 oils with D3 in them) and now (no supplemental D since mid-January).

    January 13:
    Vit. D 25-Hydroxy 53.4 ng/mL [range 32-100]
    Calcitriol 1,25 di-OH 103.1 pg/mL [range 10-75]

    March 26:
    Vit. D 25-Hydroxy 34.1 ng/mL [range 32-100]
    Calcitriol 1,25 di-OH 61.2 pg/mL [range 10-75]

    Even though I'm at the bottom of the range for 25-Hydroxy, I'm still closer to the top of the range for 1,25 di-hydroxy. But it is in range, at least!

    And it's barely spring here. This is the first time I haven't taken D3 during the winter.
     
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes:
    3,552
    We hide from the sun during the Summer here from Nov thru March. It is unbearable. From now on we will start to enjoy the milder sun (from autumn thru spring). I will have to decide wht to do. Vit D supplementation is SO unhelpful. I guess I will take the vit A route for him too.
     
  14. PointsNorth

    PointsNorth Paulo

    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    31
    LeftCoast Canada
    G, have you read anything about Dr. Cicero Coimbra of Brazil. He treats people with autoimmune diseases using high-dose vitamina D protocol. Other doctors are following his lead.

    PN
     
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes:
    3,552
    Yes, I have seen him on television. Unfortunately my health and mood declined (depression) with vit D supplementation.
     
  16. L'engle

    L'engle moogle

    Messages:
    1,559
    Likes:
    2,339
    Canada
    So what can we do about the vitamin d dysregulation? If supplementing causes a bad reaction, is there any way to deal with the situation?
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes:
    3,552
    Apparently there is a lot of people making this question lately :meh:
     
    Crux likes this.
  18. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    For this author, Vit. D dysregulation refers only to over-conversion:

    "Dysregulated vitamin D metabolism

    [​IMG]
    Normally, production of 1,25-D is tightly controlled by the kidneys in response to a complex system of hormonal regulation. But if nucleated cells are infected with bacterial pathogens, 1,25-D is generated by the inflammatory response. This causes the level of 1,25-D to exceed the upper limit normally controlled by the kidneys.

    It is essential to measure both 25-D and 1,25-D to rule out a vitamin D deficiency. The level of 25-D doesn’t directly reflect the level of 1,25-D. Patients with Th1/Th17 inflammation (who have not been supplementing with vitamin D) often have a low level of 25-D while the level of 1,25-D is high. Testing only 25-D, as is usually done, may result in a false diagnosis of vitamin D deficiency. The key result is the level of 1,25-D because it is the active metabolite.
    Long-term problems associated with dysregulated vitamin D metabolism include upset calcium homeostasis and bone loss. See Vitamin D Metabolism Dysregulation"

    Izzy, your DH does not have this problem, but do you? Interestingly, I have had all of the symptoms she lists except the first two:

    "Symptoms of elevated 1,25-D
    Mildly elevated 1,25-D can cause a variety of inflammatory symptoms. Extremely high 1,25-D is known as hypervitaminosis-D. Hypervitaminosis-D may cause a variety of symptoms such as constipation, anorexia, dehydration, fatigue, irritability, vomiting, headache, weight loss, polyuria, polydipsia and hypercalcemia."

    https://chronicillnessrecovery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=176
     
  19. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    Next I'm posting her section on how 25-D (the stuff in the D3 supplements) affects the immune system. It's complicated, sorry. And keep in mind that this website is for people with chronic inflammatory illnesses. Much of it is about controlling inflammation.

    "The effect of 25-D on the immune system

    The primary function of 25-D is to enable the active metabolite 1,25-D to be produced.

    A known effect of 25(OH)D is suppression of the immune system. Some have assumed this means 25-D blocks the VDR. This is an incorrect assumption, as shown by researchers in a study published in the Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology.

    However, in a study of a pro-inflammatory molecule, lipopolysaccharide (LPS), Lemire found elevated 25-D reduced the inflammatory cascade. Low levels (below 30 ng/ml) failed to inhibit the LPS inflammatory cascade but higher levels (30 ng/ml) inhibited inflammatory signaling (the highest levels of inflammatory inhibition occurred at 50 ng/ml).

    Also, 25-D can be indirectly immunosuppressive by two methods. First, by being converted to excess 1,25-D. And second, by its effect on the VDBP (Gc protein). Gc protein is the precursor of GcMAF (group-specific component macrophage activating factor), a powerful molecule for immune activation. Gc protein has a high-affinity binding site for 25-D. Unbound VDBP is known to be converted into GcMAF, by a combination of B and T immune cells. GcMAF presents a potent attack against bacteria and viruses so when more 25-D is in circulation there may be less unbound VDBP to be altered into GcMAF to improve immune function. A 2007 study concluded, "On the whole, vitamin D confers an immunosuppressive effect."

    Theoretically, immune system suppression allows parasitic microbes to persist and proliferate in host phagocytes, successfully compete for nutritional resources, and displace commensal organisms from their niche.

    For these reasons, we believe that reducing 25-D can improve the effectiveness of Inflammation Therapy (IT) by improving immune system function. In addition, avoiding elevated 25-D also helps reduce 1,25-D somewhat, which may decrease inflammatory symptoms and help patients feel better."​
     
  20. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    878
    Helena, MT USA
    Lastly, her recommendation. This is specifically to target inflammation and bacterial infection. I presume that viral infection would be targeted, too, because of what she said above: "GcMAF presents a potent attack against bacteria and viruses so when more 25-D is in circulation there may be less unbound VDBP to be altered into GcMAF to improve immune function."

    "Avoiding vitamin D

    Vitamin D supplementation can increase the level of 1,25-D in the chronically ill which down-regulates VDR transcription of antimicrobial peptides, resulting in less bacterial killing and thus, a reduction of symptoms in the short term. But symptoms will eventually become evident again as the bacteria continue to multiply.

    Sources of vitamin D must be avoided while treating inflammatory diseases caused by intracellular bacteria because 25-D levels are elevated by the foods and supplements that contain vitamin D.

    People who increase their intake of vitamin D with food or supplements may feel better in the short-term if inflammatory symptoms are reduced but they will succumb to the chronic diseases caused by intracellular infection more rapidly in the long run."​

    We know that in my case, 1) I have been over-converting, 2) I've been supplementing D3, so that my 25-D levels have been mid-range, and 3) my EBV antibodies have been really high. It seems that her recommendation is for someone in my situation.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page