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vitamin d question

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by xrayspex, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    I have not had good luck with feeling that I feel ok taking vitamin d so I quit a couple years ago.
    But the more I read the more I think I should try it again. I have bad luck with most supps and meds.
    Can anyone who is MCS recommend a great brand and method of taking D? start out low, pulse, liquid, brands etc?
  2. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Hi, Xray--many people think getting some sun is still the best way--see Mercola, for instance, and check out the website of Krispin Sullivan, the woman who wrote "Naked at Noon" some years ago and helped spark renewed interest--her title pointing to the fact that the ratio of UV B ( which triggers the body's production of Vit D) to UV A is highest at the sun's highest point. Supplementary Vit D must be D3, and is best consumed with some oil, and with some Vit K2; Natural Factors make a combined Vit D and K2, and some others possibly too. Some fish oils contain Vit D too--Nutrisea make a good one. But get your level checked first--it is possible to go too high. There is a straightforward test that any doc should be happy to order for you.
    Best, Chris
  3. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi,

    If you are going to check Vit D levels, there are two forms to test--Vit D 25 & Vit D 1,25. Most doctors will just order the Vit D 25, but quite a few with ME are high in Vit D 1,25 and that can correlate with high calcium--so worth checking if you are thinking of supplementing.

    Sushi
  4. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    I personally am low in 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol (D3), was very low, lower even than the other one they tested, which was pretty bad.

    I was going to post what I take, but when I checked the label I saw that it's my doctors in-house brand. I'll message you instead.

    I have MCS but I don't have too terribly much trouble finding meds and supplememts I can take. I react to some (and can't do fish oil because I have troubles with shellfish and certain other kinds of fish), but I do have some that I take no problems. So not sure how similar my situation is to yours.
  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    You could try cod liver oil, which contains naturally low levels of vitamin D.
  6. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi Xrayspex, although it is fine to take normal recommended doses of cod liver oil, it should not be used to treat a vitamin D deficiency! The reason is that it only contains very small amounts of vitamin D and very large amounts of vitamin A. If someone was to take the incredibly large amounts of cod liver oil needed to treat a vitamin D deficiency they would almost certainly get Vitamin A poisoning see http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126104-clinical

    If it is not possible to get adequate sunlight exposure then it should be treated with Vitamin D3. The Vitamin D3 test is the one that accurately shows if someone is deficient or not. D3 comes in liquid, capsule or tablet form, all vitamin D3 is the same, it is the extra additives that can be different and some people could react to them, so you may have to experiment to see which form suits you. So start on a low dose and see what happens, if no problems occur then increase the dose, If people are deficient they can need up to a million IUs to cure the problem, so if it can be tolerated then doctors will prescribe a course of 50,000 IU tablets to cure the problem very quickly.

    If problems are encountered taking vitamin D3 the most likely cause is a lack of cofactors especially magnesium see http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/vitamin-d-cofactors/

    Eating a diet high in, but not dangerously so in the cofactors vitamins A and K and Boron and supplementing with magnesium and zinc if deficient will solve this problem, it can however take reasonably large doses and some time for magnesium and zinc deficiencies to be resolved.

    Vitamin D should not be taken if people have certain undiagnosed diseases such as Hyperparathyroidism, TB, Sarcoidosis and certain cancers. Because taking vitamin D with these diseases causes rapidly rising calcium levels. Getting calcium level blood tests will reveal if these diseases are a possible cause of bad reactions to vitamin D and then further testing can be done to find which one it is.

    Vitamin D3 can also interact badly with 150 different kinds of medications, if you are taking any other medications, on this page see http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/cholecalciferol,vitamin-d3.html it has information on the all the drugs that interact badly with vitamin D3, so check if you are taking any of the medications they state can interact badly with vitamin D3.

    Hope this helps

    All the best
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Nowhere is it said that xrayspex has an outright deficiency, but even if she has, taking lower doses would still be preferable to taking nothing, as she does now.

    A cod liver oil like this contains 150IU vitamin A, and 80IU vitamin D per cap. Taking as much as 10 caps per day would provide only 1500IU vitamin A, which certainly isn't dangerous. Actually, you could take 30 caps per day, and still be within the RDA (4500IU vitamin A), while getting 2400IU vitamin D.

    That said I agree that it's important to take revelant co-factors with vitamin D.
  8. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    The best purest brand is natural sunshine, nothing can beat that.
    Note that it not only gives you vitamin D but has a range of other healthy effects.
  9. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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  10. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Sushi, thanks for the reminder--unfortunately, only the test for the 25 form is readily available here in BC, but you are right--I should probably take the trouble to get the 1.25 form tested privately if I can, to make sure--I do take K2 to try to avoid more damage from calcification--my recent echo showed no calcification of my bioprosthetic aortic valve, so at least there is no overt sign of damage so far.......
    Best, Chris
  11. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi adreno, I am aware that Xrayspex has not made it clear whether they have an outright vit D deficiency or not, when I post information I am aware that many people who are not involved in the tread are reading and many are newly diagnosed and do not know much about these subjects, so I feel that it is important to put all the right information for them, I get the impression that you think I was criticizing your post, this is not the case. I’m only providing information for everyone, and it may also be helpful for Xrayspex who had not made their vitamin D status clear.

    The average healthy human needs between 3-5000 iu of vitamin D a day just to maintain existing vit D levels, to treat vitamin D deficieny modern research shows that 10,000 iu a day is need for six months. To take enough of the cod liver oil you suggested to get 5000 iu a day to maintain existing levels of vitamin D someone would have to take 62.5 caps a day, to get the recommended 10,000 iu a day to treat vitamin D deficiency someone would have to take 125 caps of cod liver oil a day for six months, which means they would be taking 18,750 iu of vitamin A per day for six months. Vitamin A can cause liver toxicity at levels of 15,000 iu per day.

    I have seen other people recommending cod liver oil to treat vit D deficiencies (not saying that you are), it is not a good idea! To take enough to get enough vitamin D will risk the severe symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity, people will also have to take a ridiculous amount of cod liver oil caps a day, and it will be insanely expensive.

    So because Xrayspex had not made it clear whether they had vitamin D deficiency or not and because I want to provide correct and safe information for other people I wrote the post that I did. I was not criticizing your post.

    Sorry if there has been a misunderstanding.

    All the best
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Says who? The RDA is 600IU. I might agree that 800-1000IU is better for most, but it is not clear to me that we need the amount you suggest.
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I'd question those amounts too--maybe they work for some but they don't fit my experience of taking (and testing) Vit D to deal with a deficiency and then experimenting with maintenance supplementation. I took 5000 iu per day to treat a deficiency and my levels were very high normal within 3 months. When I continued at 5000 iu per day, my levels went way too high.

    The prescription form of Vit D that is often used to treat a deficiency is Vit B2, not 3, so if taking that it could require a higher dose.

    Sushi
  14. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    Based on my own experience with vitamin D testing I need at least 2000-3000 iu's a day to maintain and stay withiin a decent reference range. In the winter months I will take up to 3000iu's/day. I find if I take over that amount it gives me terrible immune or viral symptoms.
  15. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    hey thanks you guys had to leave for long time after posted this
    appreciate all of yr replies, lots of food for thought
    too beat for adequate response but briefly about 6 years ago was tested and low on d
    I feel bad with fish oil so that wont work
    being in sun tricky, if its too warm it wears me out and can flare me up but a little bit feels good
    i am retrying a few things this year like a little sun and maybe some d, have to check boundaries from time to time cus some things change or maybe pulsing or something can be better than nothing etc
    interesting about testing calcium, going to look into that
    thanks again!
  16. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    The Vitamin D council http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/how-to-get-your-vitamin-d/vitamin-d-supplementation/

    Professor Bruce W Hollis who is the world’s leading expert in vitamin D has this to say about the use of Cod liver oil to treat vitamin D deficiency.

    Cod liver oil contains a variable amount of Vitamin D, but usually contains high amounts of Vitamin A. Consumption of pre formed retinols, even in amounts consumed in multivitamins may be causing low grade but widespread, bone toxicity. Vitamin A antagonizes the action of Vitamin D, and high retinol intake thwarts Vitamin Ds protective effect on distal colorectal adenoma. The author’s do not recommend Cod liver oil.

    This information and large amounts of information based on the new scientific research into vitamin D can be found here http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/1/6.pdf

    All the best

    merylg likes this.
  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    And what makes The Vitamin D Council an authority?

    Here is what the real authorities have to say, according to "the latest research":

    So the doses recommended varies from 600-2000IU for adults. Nowhere near the recommendations of the vit D "council".

    According to who?

    And regarding his "opinion" on cod liver oil, it is far from clear that he is right:

    http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/vitamin-a-on-trial
  18. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    The US institute of medicine is not only recommending daily allowances that have already been proven to be wrong, but also recommend that levels of 20 ng/ml (50nmol/l) are fine for the majority of the population, and yet large amounts of the rest of the medical community already know that optimal levels are above 30 ng/ml (75nmol/) see advice for doctors in the UK http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/simplepage.cfm?ID=-200933361 based on research done decades ago, more modern research has shown that even this is wrong and optimal levels are above 50ng/ml (125nmol/L).

    Anyway anybody else reading, please consulted the modern research for up to date information, and do not treat vitamin D deficiency with cod liver oil because you will almost certainly get vitamin A poisoning.

    All the best
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Ok, in that case the recommendations of US Endocrine Society's Practice Guideline (1500-2000IU) should be sufficient to put people in the optimal range.

    References?
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Here is some very recent research on the optimal levels of vitamin D. It is published May 2012, so it can hardly be more "modern" than this. It is also the largest study to date, comprising almost 250,000 subjects. The study concluded that the lowest mortality risk was associated with 50-60 nmol/L. This fits very well with what the IOM is recommending.
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/early/2012/05/09/jc.2012-1176.abstract

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