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Vitamin D and Increase in Symptoms

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by TheMoonIsBlue, Mar 9, 2011.

  1. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Vitamin D, always seems to make me worse. More exhaustion, more muscle aches, feeling "blah", more trouble sleeping.

    I know there are others out there who have the same problem.

    I was wondering, could the feeling worse be a temporary "immune modulating" effect?

    Has anyone out there "stuck it out" with Vitamin D and found that over time, the worsening of symptoms disappeared? If so, how long did it take for the increase in symptoms to disappear?

    My vitamin D is only slightly low, but I am wondering, with the awful hormonal problems I have been having lately, perhaps raising my Vit D could help, if I can stick it out!

    Also, if one has adrenal fatigue, isn't Vit D very important?

    Thanks :mask:
     
  2. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I've been taking vitamin D for a couple of years. I have improved over that time, but assumed this was coincidental.

    I just take it because I'm not able to get much direct sunlight, and it seems to be one of the few supplements which seems to have a good evidence based in favour of it's use. I find that direct sunlight can be tiring (although pleasurable), but assumed that was due to the heat/light rather than the vit D.

    Sorry not to be of more use.
     
  3. pken

    pken

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    Hi TheMoonIsBlue,

    I believe vitamin D is very important for pretty much everything! When I started taking it I had no negative reactions - only positive ones. It's possible the immune modulating effects could cause some side effects (if indeed vitamin D does activate T-cells http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=another-reason-vitamin-d-is-importa-2010-03-07 ) but it's perhaps more likely to be an interaction with something else.

    I'm about to go to bed but I have a whole load of questions for you first -

    How much vitamin D are you taking?
    How often?
    When in the day?
    How long have you been taking it this time?
    Did the symptoms start immediately?
    Is the vitamin D via prescription?
    What are the ingredients?
    Do you take calcium supplements?
    Do you take magnesium supplements?

    P.
     
  4. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Hi, I have Thorne Research 5,000 mg. I have taken 1/2 of the capsule and also the whole capsule, and there is really no difference in the increase of symptoms. I like Thorne because they don't add fillers and unnecessary ingredients. I take it with my first meal of the day.

    My biggest concern, is the increase in muscle pain. All over muscle pain, but also I am noticing "Tender Points" like in FM, they are quite sore and painful if touched.

    I've only been taking it for 6 days so far.

    When I was not as ill, several years ago, I could take 2,000 or 3,000 mg of D3 a day and no increase of symptoms. Now that I am more ill- D3 seems to be making me worse. I had some immune systems testing and my "T Helper Cells" were high, while my "T Supressor Cells" were low (overactive immune system?)

    Have others had initial increase in symptoms and then improved-or are there people who are just intolerant to D3?

    I take Calcium approx 300mg and Magnesium 150mg. Not including what I get from food.

    I don't think it could interacting with anything else because I only take a low dose benzo. for sleep and on occassion, 1/2 of a benadryl.

    Thanks :)
     
  5. pken

    pken

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    Hello again,

    First, am I correct in thinking that the capsule you take is a dry form of vitamin D? I chose an oil based form as vitamin D is fat soluble vitamin and is properly absorbed in a fatty environment. That said, if you're taking the dry form capsule with a fatty meal it shouldn't be an issue. For what it's worth I take "Now Foods" brand - their gelcap lists vit D, olive oil, gelatin, glycerin and water as being the only ingredients.

    You probably know that vitamin D is linked with magnesium and calcium and that both magnesium and calcium are involved in muscle contraction and relaxation. I would be inclined to try a few days of vitamin D without the calcium supplement - unless you have good reason not to. Do you know if you could be getting significant amount of extra calcium from food - dairy perhaps or fortified orange juice?

    I would also increase magnesium at the same time as stopping the calcium supplements. 150mg isn't a lot and it depends on the type. Do you know what kind of magnesium you take? It could be magnesium malate, magnesium oxide, magnesium orotate, magnesium citrate or something else.

    P.
     
  6. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Hi Pken,
    Yes, the Thorne D3 is dry form, but I make sure to take it with a meal that contains a good amount of fat. I try to avoid the "D" in the gelcaps as I am a vegetarian and the softgels are usually made from bovine source. Also, my stomach seems to have a hard time breaking down gelcaps for some reason. I've noticed that in the past with Fish Oil Gelcaps and even medications in Gelcaps.

    I don't get very much Calcium from food. I drink Coconut milk which is fortified with Calcium, and Greek Yogurt. That's about it. The Magnesium is Citrate form. I am probably going to go ahead and order Mag Glycinate when I run out of the citrate, it's just so much more expensive :( I have never tried Mag. Malate.
    Mag. Oxide is good for constipation only! LOL.

    I have taken D3 without the cal/mag supps- don't see much difference. I'm almost out of the D3 as it is so am wondering if I should even reorder. Maybe I should just try 1,000mg.

    Just wish I my condition could improve some and that SPRING would get here so perhaps I could get out in the sun on occassion. I have to avoid sun exposure for long periods of time due to being very fair skinned, but I know when I first had my D levels tested years ago it was right at the end of summer and my D level was great!

    Thanks for the help

    ETA: This weird muscle pain is the strangest and most bothersome symptom. I was just rubbing my arm last night, and all of a sudden felt the inside of my forearm (I think thats what it's called LOL) and when I pushed on that spot, it hurt like HELL! Like it was terribly bruised or something. I have had these "tender spots" on the back of my calves for quite a while, but this spot on my arm is new.
     
  7. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    I take 10,000IU of D3 every day and have done for a few months now.

    Initially it seemed to help a lot, it still does help a bit but yes I have a slight increase in negative symptoms e.g. more aches, more muscle pain etc - but not enough to override the positve effects so far.

    The main 'negative' change is I now get lactate pain from things which should cause lactate pain not just from doing nothing - so whilst this seems like a negative I'm taking it as a positve as it seems that response is more 'normal' than previously.

    As I take it first thing in the morning I havent noticed any additional trouble sleeping but with the way I sleep most of the time time it would be difficult to tell if things were worse.

    I also take magnesium/calcium suppliment and have recently (last week) started fairly low dose GABA and melatonin (both taken just before bed) - which do affect my sleep - havent decided if it's better but it's definately different.
     
  8. pken

    pken

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    Magnesium malate is magnesium "stuck" to malic acid and malic acid seems to help some people with CFS so it's a double whammy. It might be worth trying that before the glycinate. It's quite cheap too.

    I would still avoid the calcium supplements for a while and see what happens - I would be happier not taking calcium than not taking D, given the choice. You'll get some calcium from your diet anyway. Excess calcium could be causing muscle pain I suppose and that may be affected by the D. Maybe you could try vitamin D drops? Or depending on how you feel about it, simply squeeze the contents of a capsule out onto your tongue (or food). It tastes of nothing really.

    Have you had parathyroid hormones and kidney function checked?
     
  9. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Thanks, Pken. I found a source of Mag Glycinate that is reasonably priced. I'll probably give that a go. Then when I run out of the Vit D in a few days, I'll probably take a break and then start back on a lower dose of 1,000 mg. I've taken Six 5,000 mg caps so far so I guess I've atleast given my body a bit of a boost of Vit D.

    I've had all sort of thyroid tests, not sure about parathyroid, but probably? Yes and my kidney function tested several times over the last year. Everything A-OK.

    And you're probably right about the Calcium....but as a woman, everytime you go a gynocologist, they always say "Women need to take 1,000 mg of Calcium a day" (I've NEVER taken that much, and there was recent research that shows too much Calcium can go to the Heart and cause problems) I think they're way off on educating women on BONE health.....they never even mention the other essentials for bone health, such as D3, Magnesium, etc.
     
  10. pken

    pken

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    I saw that research or something similar - and I've read that it's not just the heart muscle that can get too much calcium so it's conceivable that your other muscles are over saturated. Maybe the vitamin D is having some liberating effect? Who knows.

    And you're correct, the "take calcium for bone health", while ignoring what's far more important (the D) is just another one of the silly mantras that medics seem to love, without actually looking at the evidence.

    You don't take antacids do you?
     
  11. pken

    pken

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    I was thinking about your reaction this morning and it occurred to me that you may not be getting as much magnesium as you think. It's worth checking and this information might be useful for others reading this forum. 150mg of magnesium citrate will only supply a fraction of that amount of actual magnesium. Different forms of magnesium contain different amounts per gram. Quite apart from how available it is to your body it's important to know how much actual (elemental) magnesium you are taking. The following graph might do a better job of explaining this -

    [​IMG]

    It's from this webpage http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium
     
    camas likes this.
  12. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    A couple of quick comments: AOR make a good Mag Malate that provides 100 mg elemental Mag per capsule (elemental mag is the phrase to look for); and everyone should read Colin Campbell's "The China Study" for a good account of the Vit D / calcium thing (there are many other reasons to read it too!). It seems clear that it is at least as important to avoid losing calcium from one's bones as it is to ingest enough calcium, and the best way to do that is to avoid animal protein, which turns the body acidic, so that calcium is withdrawn from bones to realkalinize the body--a necessity. Best, Chris
     
  13. pine108kell

    pine108kell Senior Member

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    Regarding the original question about Vitamin D making you feel worse: As many are may be aware there is one hypothesis out there (proposed by Trevor Marshall) that Vit D can help trigger the inflammatory cascade for us and should be avoided. In fact, that is one major facet behind the so-called "Marshall protocol", which is highly controversial to say the least.

    This is not a generally accepted theory, and I am not advocating following it by any means, but just throwing it out there for awareness. There was a paper or two (not by Marshall) that seemed to support this, but, of course, there are many others that suggest otherwise.
     
  14. pken

    pken

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    I read about the M Protocol a couple of years ago when one of the blood tests I had pointed towards possible sarcoidosis - turns out it wasn't. What struck me was the almost evangelical following he, and his protocol, had. And if I remember correctly it's just a theory based on a computer model - a model he wouldn't disclose. He wasn't a medical doctor either. All rather too cult-like for me. It IS worth noting that those with sarcoidosis are told to avoid vitamin D by real physicians, based on real science.

    I still think the possibility of excess calcium is a link to the muscle pain and lethargy, one that is being exacerbated by the vitamin D. Excess calcium could cause other symptoms too. So my point is, perhaps the vitamin D is pointing out that you have too much calcium, or too little magnesium, or both.
     
  15. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    There is some info in the research that suggests Vit D should not be taken at the same time as Vit A, some negative interaction possible. Perhaps something like that is happening?

    Also, what matters with Mag is absorption rate, not amount of magnesium in the supplement. I believe Mag Chloride is better absorbed than most of the other forms.

    Vit D was discussed a lot some years ago on the Yahoo group CFSFMExperimental, you might look through the archives there. Vit D is an immune modulator, pretty complex.
     
  16. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Thanks everyone for the replies. I've been taking Thorne Research Magnesium Citrate, which says 140mg (nothing about Elemental, but I've seen that on other supplements, so I think I know what you're trying to explain). I went ahead and ordered some Magnesium Glycinate.

    Thanks for providing that chart, Pken.

    Chris: "It seems clear that it is at least as important to avoid losing calcium from one's bones as it is to ingest enough calcium, and the best way to do that is to avoid animal protein, which turns the body acidic, so that calcium is withdrawn from bones to realkalinize the body--a necessity." Well, that's a positive for me, as I am a vegetarian! Of course being a vegetarian I have to be mindful of other nutrients which may be missing from my diet.

    Diesel- That is exactly what it feels like, I feel HIGHLY inflammed and muscle soreness and those "FM Tender Points" developing with the Vitamin D, and like a Cytokine storm going on in my head.

    Ah well, Guess I'm going to stop the Vit D for now. No use in making myself feel even worse!
     
  17. SirArthur

    SirArthur

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    I believe Vit. D was causing this deep, burning, painful sensation in both of my thigh muscles. I could barely walk around the house.
    I started Vit. D about 2 weeks, ago & since I stopped taking it 3 days ago 90% of the pain is gone. I was taking alot 5,000 IU (D3) most days as I was rather low.
    I finally made the connection & thought it may have been the Vit. D, that's why I stopped. I didn't think muscle pain was a side effect of too much Vit. D. from what I read online.
    BTW-My Doctor says I'm a textbook case with my CFS/ME. However, muscle pain & aches are not one of my top 3 symptoms so the terrible thigh pain was highly unusual.
     
  18. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    I guess Vit.D increases my muscle aching and pain.
     
  19. penny

    penny Senior Member

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    Taking vitamin D or calcium supplements increases my muscle pain & cramps (which wrecks my sleep which increases all other symptoms, yipee).
     
  20. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Hi Penny,
    I had to stop taking Vit D. I tried taking it without Calcium as suggested maybe this was the problem, but it wasn't. Increasing my Magnesium with the Vit D was not helpful either.

    The Vit D gave me all over muscle pain but also distinct "FM Tender Point" type pain. Very painful. It also gave me (or gives me) a general feeling of extreme Inflammation all over- my body, my brain, everywhere.

    It went away within 2 days of stopping the Vit D.

    So I don't know why but Vit D supplements and I are enemies. The sun doesn't make me ill, though.

    P.S. Magnesium Glycinate has been helpful, taken by itself-not with Vit D! ;)

    Maybe I'll create a Poll for Vit D......
     

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