A New Decade of ME Research: The 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference 2016
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Vitamin C liposomal or not

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by prioris, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    I would guess this reaction is form something else in it, not from the sodium ascorbate itself.

    https://selfhacked.com/blog/the-benefits-of-lithium/
    Always double-check the sources. :) For example this author also mentions effects in animal studies not confirmed in humans.

    ?? Could you explain me the meaning of that expression?
     
  2. gettinbetter

    gettinbetter Senior Member

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    I will consider lithium orotate Thanks for the link
    A lot of supplements hype me

    Im the movie dumb and dumber Jim Carey ask a girl where she is from ,she say Austria
    He says (Trying to impress her) Well then put and extra shrimp on the barbi (barbeque)
    Which is an Australian expression
    It's funny
     
  3. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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  4. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    there's differences of opinion out there. i would listen to what clinicians who use it in their practice are saying about what works for their patients. there needs to be more definitive studies of it that go beyond serum levels.

    most people will end up using C for therapeutic purposes will use liposomals because it has advantages over the plain in terms of convenience and side effects.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator please split this thread at post #1173 with a new title "Vitamin C liposomal or not"

    :rofl:
     
  6. gettinbetter

    gettinbetter Senior Member

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    Thanks
    That is useful information
     
  7. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    Thank you Gondwanaland, that was very good practice for me. :thumbsup:
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  8. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but with 'clinicians' you probably mean Dr. Levy, whom is known to say that liposomal vitamin C has 10 times the effectiveness by weight of ordinary Vitamin C in Viral infections in his clinical experience. What you may not be aware of is that Dr. Levy clarified on the vitaminC-forum, that this experience particularly pertained to the anti-viral effect of vitamin C, but not any of the others - like for example the anticancer effect. And we should also mention that Dr. Levy recommends not only liposomal, but along with it high amounts of sodium ascorbate and ascorbyl palmitate all taken together just for maintaining good health. Not just patients.

    edit: typos and clarifications
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  9. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    Levy wrote

    My clinical opinion is that one gram of properly-produced and orally-ingested liposome-encapsulated vitamin C is as or more effective than 5 to 10 grams of vitamin C given intravenously, for an acute viral syndrome. When someone is ill, my advice is still to use as many forms of vitamin C as available, and dosed as highly as is feasible. I discussed this "Multi-C Protocol" in another article.

    https://www.peakenergy.com/articles/nh20140411/Exposing-the-truth-about-liposomal-nutrients

    this goes back to what i was saying ... there needs to be more definitive research ... he is just trying to cover his basis

    More articles:
    June 22, 2013 | Liposome-Encapsulated Glutathione
    July 9, 2013 | Root canals are a primary cause of chronic disease
    June 27, 2013 | Calcium, the Toxic Supplement
    July 28, 2013 | Vitamin C With Vaccinations
    August 3, 2013 | Avoiding Digestive Toxicity
    August 10, 2013 | The disease causing dangers of high iron levels
    August 19, 2013 | Vitamin C better than chemotherapy
    September 2, 2013 | The marketing myth of ’vitamin C complex’
    September 18, 2013 | Cardiologist speaks truth about cholesterol and statins
    October 2, 2013 | Reverse shingles with vitamin C
    October 14, 2013 | The effective prevention and treatment of radiation exposure
    October 29, 2013 | Undiagnosed scurvy causes widespread disease
    November 19, 2013 | Eliminate lead toxicity by consuming vitamin C
    November 29, 2013 | New study says high fat diet is healthy
    January 1, 2014 | Osteoporosis is much more than calcium deficiency
    February 21, 2014 | Vitamin C is the 'muscle' of the immune system
    March 11, 2014 | Reversing disease with the 'multi-C' protocol
    April 6, 2014 | The dangers of magnesium deficiency
    April 11, 2014 | Exposing the truth about liposomal nutrients
    July 13, 2014 | Best nutrients to have in your ‘one a day’ supplement
    August 3, 2014 | Surprising solution for Ebola virus
    October 19, 2014 | Can natural protocols be an effective treatment for Ebola?
    November 16, 2014 | Medical warning: Gluten allergies affect everyone
    December 5, 2014 | Holistic dentistry pioneer Dr. Hal Huggins dies at 77 but his legacy will live forever
    December 23, 2014 | Can a dental infection cause a massive heart attack?
    January 29, 2015 | Most cardiologists shocked to discover the true cause of heart attacks
    September 2, 2015 | The number one cause for 90% of all heart attacks
    February 15, 2016 | The most popular vitamin C myths exposed
    February 27, 2016 | How to effectively treat viral infections, including Ebola and Zika
    March 14, 2016 | The never-ending war against vitamin C
    May 22, 2017 | Vitamin C and sepsis: The genie is now out of the bottle
     
  10. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    As an aside
    I've read clinicians say Vitamin C doesn't work for cancer but it contradicts
    http://knowledgeofhealth.com/reassessment-of-vitamin-c-therapy-and-cancer/

    The interesting thing about vitamin C is when it is augmented by Zinc. Zinc regenerates the thymus gland. That's why I am leery of someone just saying Vitamin C whether liposomal or plain doesn't work.
     
  11. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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  12. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Bill Sardi does bring up good points in his blog, but he also sells overpriced supplements and isn't a MD:

    Thanks for confirming you meant Dr. Levy when you talked about 'Clinicians'. Here more detail about his multi-C protocol:



    Some claims are easy to verify, since they have been studied already long ago.

    So all together 142 persons, about 85% of them even still infants and children, which were given 6 g/d of ascorbic acid for about 4 years. Only 9 persons in this long term experiment experienced negative side-effects. These 6.3% who did experience side-effects (which always immediately cease be reducing the dose) hardly qualify for 'most people'. Please don't exaggerate that much. There are enough myths about vitamin C being spread through the internet.

    'Significant greater serum levels' doesn't support your Conclusion:
    And LPI in the already posted link comments:

    Petri-dish studies due to the complexity of the human organism and chemistry are mostly completely misleading.
     
  13. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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  14. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    In a petri-dish, ok.
     
  15. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    Pureway-C wasn't in a petri dish
     
  16. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    All the links you provided for Pureway didn't contain any link to human trials.

    Then it must be a brand new study before LPI reviewed. Can you give a link to this new study to verify?
     
  17. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    How do you measure C Reactive protein and LDL stuff without a human subject but I will see what else I can dig up and do best I can.

    As far as side effects a very long time ago, I remember regular vitamin C had negative effect on my restless leg syndrome. It also seemed to give to give me cramps so seemed to deplete my body of minerals.
     
  18. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Looked at this only study in humans, 10 persons in each arm with 1 gram AA (ascorbic acid), CaA (calcium ascorbate), EC (Ester-C) and PWC (Pureway-C).

    serum.png

    table.png


    Comparing the serum peaks of AA at 2hrs of 1.64 mg/dl and PwC at 2.17 mg/dl, gives indeed 32,3% higher serum levels for about 1 hr.
    CRP: after 24 hrs 10.95% difference
    OxLDL: after 24 hrs 4.37% difference


    Therefore this only and very small study in humans with 32.3% higher serum levels, 10.95% lower CRP and 4.37 lower OxLDL on 1 gram PwC compared to AA doesn't support the 4 times higher bioavailabilty claim.


    Comparing PwC at iherb with what I pay for pure AA powder (without any additives), it would cost 10 times! as much for only about 30% higher serum levels for 1 hr.

    Of course, if one is getting already stomach upset at such low doses of AA, PwC or liposomal are very viable options. But for indeed higher serum levels, as in the NewSealand study with 20 g/d of AA for those not sensitive - which are most people (93.7% in above toxicity study), it would be an utter waste of money.


    PS: The most benign and affordable vitamin C for those sensitive is sodium ascorbate, easily and cheaply made by mixing pure ascorbic acid with half it's weight sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water. Both very cheap to get pure powders.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  19. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    Most people are generally healthy so most can likely take regular vitamin C because they are dealing with less serious and chronic things.

    I am not talking about those healthier people but ones that use it for longer term therapeutic purposes and at higher dosages. They will likely have more sensitivities and side effects to many things. This has been my general impression over many decades.

    Hickey says that one can take a 500 mg capsule 5 times a day and get high levels. That's a very taxing protocol. Taking something 2 times a day long term is practical. Taking something 3 times is doable but very taxing. More than that and pretty overwhelming. I don't know how many healthy people could stick with this regimen. I don't post to improve health of healthy people but ones with more serious problems.

    As far as the percentage difference in CRP etc but a 10% increase in CRP in 24 hours is significant but still very lacking. It would be better if they did it for at least 2-3 months. So many other problems with so many studies but that is all we have. We have to read behind the lines and use our intuition. It's about finding possible things for people to experiment with and not whether there is absolute proof something will work. There are people that will use very strict criteria to evaluate criteria so they end up just saying nothing has been proven to work so don't try it. If I did that, I would not have found a solution to many things. This is not about finding iron clad proof but reading between the lines. I said way way back that to get something definitive, there would have to be larger and more comprehensive studies.

    If I am in a life and death situation with sepsis, I'd go for the most expensive vitamin C supplements in the multiprotocol. I wouldn't be effing about trying to save a little money. I'd also throw in p73 wild oregano for good measure since I already have it on hand but most people don't. Each chronically ill person has their situation and options in vitamin C so they can create a possible solution with the various options.
     
  20. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Mind it, both of us wouldn't even have been included in this study, because they excluded most with any health issues. Actually me too (with many chronic diseases) have 2 data-points with oxidized LDL (oxLDL). One test in 2012 after 1 year with a very severe chronic bronchitis and with my highest CRP of 7.2 mg/l: 66 ug/l. The second oxLDL in 2014 in much better health - just having reversed my 60% walking-disability from PAD - at 114 ug/l (range 20-170; optimal <60). Go figure :bang-head:

    The only change in my high dose antioxidant regime between these 2 oxLDL tests have been a reduction of Astaxanthin from 9 down to 6 mg/d. Will probably never know for sure, too many co-variables.

    Actually the opposite is the case in Robert F. Cathcart experience with thousands of patients on high dose Vitamin C:

    Emphasis added by me. You really should take the effort and read this educating article in toto.

    Again, as already said, with deathly sepsis I wouldn't be in experimental mode. I would follow the exact protocol studied by Dr. Paul Marik, with IV Hydrocortisone, Vitamin C, and Thiamine. See http://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)62564-3/fulltext

     

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