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Vitamin C liposomal or not

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by prioris, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    i think because hardly any is getting into your system (only 3%). you just urinate it out.

    by hype you mean it is a stimulant ... so like guarana or coffee ... you saying it makes you feel more wide awake ... i assume this isn't anxiety your talking about which is a negative stimulant
     
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  2. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    i'm not sure what my testosterone level is but i did have prostate pain and it went away with 40mg+ elemental zinc (zinc orotate form). zinc also helps regenerate thymus gland also.
     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  4. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Been taking 370 mcg K2-mk7 and 12 mg of K2-mk4 daily during that same time period.

    Not my experience, got many benefits from high dose vitamin C. There is one study which actually measured serum levels from high dose vitamin C, and showed levels only thought possible with IV:

    Emphasis added by me.
     
  5. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    Taking up to 20 mg of plain regular vitamin C has too many negative side effects for most people. On average they will absorb 3% of the vitamin C. That is why high dose regular vitamin C could never achieve widespread use. ` this is why low dosages are generally used for plain vitamin C.

    if i have sepsis and dying - oral liposomal vitamin C is a no brainer ... couldn't achieve the same thing with regular vitamin C except thru high dose intravenous and even the intravenous is inferior because liposomal absorbs better into the cells and minimal side effects.
     
  6. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Any reference for the claim 3% would absorb only? Obviously those in above study didn't experience negative side-effects, nor do I with more than 20 g/d.

    Any reference for that hypothesis that liposomal would absorb better than IV?
     
  7. gettinbetter

    gettinbetter Senior Member

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    Thanks
    If it is just going through my system then why would it hype me?
    It has to actually be absorbed and enter the chemical processes of the body to hype right?

    When I say hype the same thing that happens with caffeine in this case it lasted about 24 hours

    Livon labs was the brand
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This would be regular vit C according to @prioris
    This would be liposomal vit C
     
  9. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    hype in the caffeine sense can be positive kind of hype. i could read that to mean your body is getting more healthy so liposomal may actually be better. it's murky area since i'm not you. Liposomals will stay in blood way longer.

    I've taken guarana many decades ago which is the most intense type coffee stimulant. i wasn't aware of what it did when i took it. It kept me wide awake and alert for 3 days and felt productive.
     
  10. gettinbetter

    gettinbetter Senior Member

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    Hype is not natural energy for me it's jittery can't relax energy
    If you can't go to sleep 16 hours after taking it that is not good

    livon labs Liposomal vit c does not work for me
     
  11. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    I don't remember where I got that 3% figure but I think it was for a person taking 30 grams a day.

    For people wanting true high dose vitamin C therapy, liposomals are the only practical way to go.

    People taking lower end amounts of C, I wouldn't go over 1000 mg of plain C since after a certain point, the body will just get rid of it. Also being water soluble, it won't last as long in the body. Liposomals lasted well over 6 hours but i am taking that off the ester and pureway C studies.

    1000 mg liposomal = roughly 8000g to 15,000 mg plain vitamin C

    liposomal C has a long life time in blood .... plain vitamin C being water soluble has short life time so one would need at least i think 3 doses in same time to maintain blood serum levels

    So if you need 60,000 mg of C to fight off something, liposomals are a no brainer.

    6 units of liposomal or 60 units of plain (plus plain has to be taken more

    If someone wants a little vitamin c in their body and that's all, plain will do but i'm talking true therapeutic levels.

    As far as side effects ... low doses are one thing but as the dose and duration increases more and more people will get side effects ... you see this on a lot of reviews on vitamin C

    for true therapeutic vitamin C, liposomal C obsoletes plain C.
     
  12. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    jittery ... that is more clarification
    that seems to be more a methylation problem
    have you tried lithium orotate
     
  13. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    The following is the only case study to my knowledge which compared liposomal against ordinary ascorbic acid. Quite strange, in that they compared merely 5 gram of regular oral ascorbic acid to 20g or 36g liposomal. Resulting plasma levels of equal oral doses (5g) showed almost identical!

    Pharmacokinetics of oral vitamin C

    STEPHEN HICKEY, HILARY J. ROBERTS, & NICHOLAS J. MILLER

    "Figure 1 shows the response of the female subject to single 5 g doses of liposomal and
    standard formulation vitamin C; both produced similar response curves. These results are
    comparable in form and magnitude to those expected for oral vitamin C in previously
    depleted subjects. However, peak values exceeded 220 mM L which has been reported as
    the maximum value attainable with repeated oral doses of 3 g six times daily [8]. The
    subjects were experienced users of high-dose vitamin C and neither suffered any
    gastrointestinal effects at this dose level.5 "
    liposomal5.png

    Increasing the dose of liposomal vitamin C to 20g gave a broader response, with
    a delayed maximum, as shown in Figure 2. In this graph, the 20g liposomal dose is
    compared with a 5g standard dose (male subject). With a 20g intake, the peak plasma
    level was delayed and the response was broader, indicating a greater absorption of
    vitamin C. The 5g data set shows a marked outlier (peak): this is attributed to the fact
    that one of the (5g) blood samples was difficult to extract, with inflammation at the
    puncture site, providing only a small sample. The subject experienced no bowel
    tolerance effects at either of these intakes.
    liposomal35.png

    Figure 3 shows plasma levels following a 36g dose of liposomal vitamin C, for
    both subjects. This resulted in peak plasma levels, in the region of 400 µM/L. A 95%
    interfractile range (34-114), which contains 95% of the distribution with a mean of 74
    corresponds to a calculated standard deviation of 17.4. We note that, under these
    conditions, an outlier measurement of 400 µM/L would correspond to a deviation of
    10.3 σ with a theoretical p value of 1.6x10 -13 (i.e. P<0.0000000000001). With this high
    dose, both subjects exceeded their bowel tolerance, leading to diarrhoea. This
    intolerance presumably arose from the high intake of phospholipid, without food
    buffering, in fasting individuals. However, our observations using hourly doses suggest
    that daily intakes of this magnitude are tolerable without bowel effects, as long as the
    dose is spread throughout the day.
    liposomal20.png

    36 grams!!! of Liposomal vitamin C didn't even reach the 517 µmol/L serum levels of ordinary 20g of oral ascorbic acid spread out through the day, as in the previous study!


    Buyer beware!
     
  14. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    That's a really strange study using so much liposomal.It's kind of misleading too. I think his intent was trying to get over the 500 barrier.

    I believe what Hickman found was that liposomals can go over 400 but not 500. Little over 500 can only be gotten to with repeated short term doses of ascorbic acid. Taking such voluminous amounts of plain C for therapeutic purposes has too many drawbacks. One could take the liposomals to get to over 400 then top it off with some plain C to get to 500 but that is just an idea.

    i look at the pureway c and ester c studies which (not liposomals) i believe use metabolites that allows liver to process them as proof of superiority over plain C. Once it gets to the serum, how well does it absorb into the cells is important too. Plain C doesn't fair well in this respect.

    for me, the anecdotal ways heavily too.
    I would refer people someone like Dr. Thomas E. Levy and others who see it in their practices.

    I wish an independent person would do a quick study of the different brands of liposomals (also non liposomals) and how much absorbed and how long they stay in blood serum just to compare products.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  15. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    How do you know if you never took more than 1 gram?

    As I wrote already elsewhere about the benefits I experienced from oral high dose ascorbic acid:

    Only negative side-effect in my case is flatulence well above my daily intake of 23 g/d approaching bowel tolerance at 50g (https://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm). So basically no drawbacks at all.
     
  16. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    I've taken 10-20 grams but with negative side effects. That's why I wouldn't touch vitamin C except in low doses. Same happens to many other people. I can take 20 grams of ester C or Pureway C with no problem. With liposomals, all I need is 2 grams to get same dosage.

    Paulus Lining 6 gram dosage is for plaque removal. The Linus Pauling website or someone associated with it recommends Pureway C. Another liposomal product I have only requires 5/8 tsp for equivalent 6 grams. Some people tolerate plain vitamin C better than others. That bowel tolerance test is essentially saying keep upping the amount until you experience side effects.

    For decades, I've seen countless posts of people on the internet who will say I take e.g. 15 grams plain C and it works for me and you should do it too. They never informed people about all the other forms of vitamin C nor acknowledged the side effects. The side effects of plain vitamin C were swept under the rug. It didn't truly inform people. One needs to give a larger perspective on vitamin C otherwise it will cause vitamin C therapy to fail in people or more likely give up using it.

    The newer vitamin C forms have made vitamin C more accessible. Since hospitals won't administer intravenous vitamin C for people with sepsis for many reasons including legal, it allows a person to take responsibility for their health without doctor permission, The survival of people with sepsis in hospital is i think 14% or less. With intravenous plain C, it is 87% or around there. One can replace intravenous with oral liposomal C and probably more effective.
     
  17. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    What have been your negative side-effects?

    Please be aware that some acorbates come with high amounts of minerals. For example 20 g calcium ascorbate would give you 2g of calcium. Which I would avoid. See here for bio-availability and drawbacks from different forms; http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-C/supplemental-forms

    Strange accusation. I thought it common knowledge that different people can only tolerate different amount before intestinal discomfort and then liquid stuhl starts. But nothing which wouldn't cease by reducing the next vitamin C dose again. That for some can be as low as 0.5 and as high as 100 grams. It is very individual and can change over time. But maybe it's only me who fact-checks before embarking on any supplement? And then carefully with the lowest possible dose in the beginning to avoid always possible individual adverse reactions.

    I don't have sepsis and I don't see a good reason why I should pay 50 times more per gram for liposomal, if it doesn't even reach the serum levels possible with regular.

    Would you like to elaborate your health benefits with liposomal, as I did with regular high dose ascorbic acid?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  18. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    As far as side effects, it's been a long while so don't remember all of them. Created at least stomach problems as I remember.

    I agree about the calcium ascorbate. That's the drawback of Ester C so wouldn't take it except for short time. Pureway C doesn't have calcium.

    That oregon info page is mixed in terms of providing reliable info. very skimpy info but i like how it tries to cover all forms. many info sources don;t do that

    Lot articles and people posting comments pushing the ... take huge doses of plain vitamin C for this or take some vitamin C ... very rarely if ever talked about the side effects ... this is just the reality of so many articles and posts on internet hence they didn't educate people in vitamin C ... nothing to do with accusation ... it's just my impression of so much vitamin C info ... you may know, i may know, people in this forum may know but that doesn't mean most everyone else knows

    as far as sepsis, i'd research that if i were you. were talking life or death. if you or a loved one comes down with sepsis, oral plain vitamin C ain't working. it's either intravenous or oral liposomal.

    https://naturallyhealthynews.com/newsletter/2017/week-21-2017-sepsis

    The number one reason why people take other forms of vit C is due to side effects of plain C. The next reason is that one can achieve much higher blood levels with one tenth the amount ...

    https://www.naturalnews.com/034591_vitamin_C_mega-dose_healing.html

    Here are my notes on strength from studies I came across as far as serum levels
    VITC = Regular Vitamin C 1000mg
    Ester C = 4 X VITC = 4000 mg VITC
    PureWay= 4.5 X VITC
    Lyco Spheric = 10-15 X VITC

    >A small study in healthy adults found that serum levels of vitamin C did not differ when a single oral dose (1 gram) of either PureWay-C® or ascorbic acid was administered

    it is not providing people the full story

    but how long did the adults retain their serum levels for ... lie by omission
    ... how effective did each absorb into the cells
    ... why didn't it try higher doses and compare them
    these are other important factors

    this ain't a debate. people can do their own research and decide.



    it would be nice to have more definitive and larger scale studies comparing the different forms

    if whatever form and dose your taking works for you, that's fine. i'm just letting people know that they have other option if one form of vitamin C doesn't work for them. if they have serious sepsis, they better think twice before reaching for just plain vit C.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  19. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    As said, I don't suffer from sepsis. If I would I would right away get the vitamin C, hydrocortisone and thiamine infusion.

    I provided 2 studies which taken together show that 20 g of regular oral vitamin c throughout the day can give higher serum levels than one bolus of 36 g liposomal vitamin c (without the stomach upset the phospholipids alone caused at that dose). You just repeat unfounded claims without even 1 study or source in support. Nor can you mention even one health-benefit you personally experienced from liposomal, as I can from regular vitamin C.

    Ok, so lets just agree to disagree.
     
  20. gettinbetter

    gettinbetter Senior Member

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    It's a jittery heart pounding that happened with the smallest amount of lipo vit c maybe 1/100 of a packet not kidding

    What are the benefits of lithium orotate?
    I have not tried it
    Thanks

    I see pamojja you're from Austria
    Well put and extra shrimp on the Barbi
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017

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