A New Decade of ME Research: The 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry presents the first in a series of articles on the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London ...
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Vitamin C for sleep (seriously!) - ameliorates excitotoxicity

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by Mary, Jan 15, 2017.

  1. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Absolutely correct, although during times of increased stress, such as illness, the recommendation is to double the physiological dose to 40mg/d until the event has passed. The body cannot mount an effective immune response without adequate cortisol, and under normal circumstances, healthy adrenals immediately produce 40-60mg of cortisol naturally to cope with any significant stressor, e.g., invasive dental treatment, a minor accident, an emotional upset, or the onset of a viral/ bacterial infection. A major event, like a big car accudent, would be automatically treated with 100mg hydro immediately.

    Of course the need for supra-physiological doses indicates other issues at play, and of course they are known immune suppressors at supra-physiological doses :) In fact, they are given to help stop the rejection of transplanted organs, etc, and the impact on immune response is the reason why pred, in particular, is such an effective anti-inflammatory.
     
  2. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Most of the patients here are not in the acute categories you mention for the supra physiologic doses, and inadvertently taking them can have very negative long term consequences.

    Many of us have suppressed immune system function and need everything on our side to regain a healthy immune system.

    I believe the very short courses of dexamethasone I was on with my chemotherapy was a factor leading to my current situation - in fact, studies have been done showing long term adrenal suppression as a result, and I sure have it...

    I currently take 20-30mg of HC a day, and crash without it, so I value what it does, but my doctor and I are very cognisant of the dangers and we try to keep me with not too much and not too little.

    This article summarizes the dangers:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3765115/

    This is a sensible set of guidelines for hydrocortisone use:

    http://hormonebalance.org/userfiles/file/ADRENAL 03-29-10[1].pdf
     
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  3. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Learner1 - interesting! We take almost the exact same things, except for niacin or niacinamide, which also can be very helpful. I used to take taurine and then stopped, I don't know if I need it - I take sooo much stuff (not just for sleep) I try to cut what I can get by without.

    I just ordered some Seriphos (original formula!) because my sleep has been worse lately. I've been trying to figure out why, it may be due to andrographis which I believe is helping both my thyroid and adrenals, I'm tweaking things but in the meanwhile am rather miserable! :cry: I hope to get it sorted out very soon, as I was doing well with sleep until a week or two ago .....
     
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  4. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Jigsaw - re sleep, you might try some of the stuff both @Learner1 and I are taking (see both our posts above) --
     
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  5. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Learner1

    You're preaching to the converted :)

    I also think that the course of Dexa they had me on during my chemo may well have contributed to the worsened state of my adrenals post-chemo, too. Mine was also only a short course. They gave me Dexa to try and curb the frequency and intensity of my vomiting in response to the chemo. Was that the reason they put you on it, too?

    I used to be on the standard physiological dose of hydro, which I have referenced more than once in other posts, but now crash without a worryingly high supra-physiological dose.
     
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  6. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Mary

    :)

    B6 in any form keeps me awake (I tried it again the last couple of nights, still no good)
    Taurine I already take
    Glycine I react to
    Theanine makes me MORE anxious (I have a separate thread running in an attempt to understand why GABA and theanine both do this to me)
    Melatonin we've already discussed, it wakes me up after an hour or so
    5-HTP I take every night, until my serotonin levels get too high (usually around 2-3 months), when I have a week's break, and also reduce my taurine, because taurine increases serotonin too.
    I already use USP Progesterone nature-identical cream, but wouldn't fancy my chances with a synthetic, which I think is what Prometrium is?
    PS I haven't used, though I do take lecithin/choline, and I have no serine in the house at the moment either.

    Lots of people report greatly improved sleep with ornithine. That didn't do it for me, either.

    My nightly routine is progesterone cream, 200mg mag citrate (I only use mag malate in the mornings, because malic acid contributes to the production of ATP), 250-500mg tryptophan, 100mg 5-HTP.

    I had greatly improved sleep, energy, mood, cognitive function, pain levels, everything really, on 1g tryptophan plus 50-100mg 5-HTP, but after c.8 weeks, I went down with a severe case of shingles. I felt that the trpto had somehow suppressed my immune system despite the, to me, highly interesting side-effect of 1g trypt allowing me to drastically reduce my hydro very easily to a much more reasonable 45mg/d (c.1/2 of my usual dose then and now). So I'm wary of increasing it much above 250-500mg again, until I've managed to work out for certain if the trypt did indeed trigger the shingles, or if it was because I reduced my hydro too quickly (I didn't crash once during reduction, so it doesn't feel like it was that), or what other mechanism was in operation.

    It's only by changing my usual nightly supps from looking at the posts here and thinking it was worth an experiment or two that has resulted in really rubbish sleep for me for the past two nights. I already knew that B6 is widely documented as interfering with sleep if taken at night, but I wondered if it maybe affected melatonin levels via the serotonin pathway and thought I'd try it again after reading posts here. Most B vits, because they are primarily involved in energy production from foods, or in the case of B5, in adrenal steroid production, have a stimulating effect.

    To paraphrase my own signature, not everything works for everyone, and what works for me might not work for someone else, and vice versa.

    I'm going back to my original night-time routine tonight. I'm exhausted!
     
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  7. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    I hope you figure it out soon... I know how frustrating it can be. I've found small tweaks have made a big difference over time. It seems to be a moving target.

    I also have a good doctor helping me...he suggested swapping my niacinamide to lunch time and the P5P to bedtime which helped a lot at the time.
     
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  8. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Learner1

    From your guidelines link:

    "Cortef 5 mg may be taken three times daily with meals. Some people prefer to take it twice daily, 10 mg in the morning and 5-10 mg around 4 pm. Because cortisol is a natural hormone it will not interfere with taking any other medication. If you develop a respiratory infection or go through a period of extreme stress you may need to temporarily increase your dose of cortef (up to 20 mg four times daily)."

    Recommended Reading
    Safe Uses of Cortisol by William Mck. Jefferies, M.D., FACP
    Adrenal Fatigue by James Wilson, N.D., D.C., Ph.D. "


    I don't think I've contradicted anything that those guidelines suggest. I've had a copy of Jeffries' "Safe Uses Of Cortisol" since 2000, and have read it, and go back and check things in it periodically. I know Jeffries subscribes to an even dosing protocol.

    I respond better when I divide my daily dose and top-load it, i.e., my biggest dose is taken in the morning and susequent doses are increasingly smaller, with my smallest dose being no later than 4pm.

    This more closely mimics the body's natural production of cortisol, and is also what my endo Prof recommends, and all his endo nurses insist on that protocol, too, obviously. They write leaflets about it. Top-load, don't evenly dose, you'll confuse your system, they say. I agree.

    When I was working at Barry Peatfield's thyroid and adrenal clinic, he had everyone divide their 20mg hydro into four equal doses, with the last 5mg taken at bedtime.

    Everyone, including myself, found difficulty falling asleep, and Barry prescribed temazepam to all of us who were affected by this.

    I didn't think that was right, not when we were supposed to be replacing what is basically an adrenal deficiency, and trying to stay away from pharmaceutical "symptom-hiders" instead of addressing the route cause as naturally as possible, so I researched it in an endocrinolgy medical book I had at home.

    It said that the natural pattern is a peak of cortisol in the morning (it's what wakes you up) and then an ever-decreasing level throughout the day, tailing off to zero around 11/1130pm, which makes you feel sleepy and ready for bed.

    By taking 5mg at 10pm every night, none of us could sleep because we weren't being given the "no cortisol" signal that heralds sleep. It's basic physiology.

    We produce none at all during the night, under normal circumstances, which is precisely why being emotionally or physically stressed has us tossing and turning all night, unable to sleep, because stress elevates cortisol levels and we aren't supposed to have any cortisol floating around in the wee small hours. It sends the wrong signal to our brains.

    After showing Barry the natural circadian rhythym of cortisol, he then instructed everyone to take it no later than 4-5pm, and to top-load their doses to mimic the natural rhythym.

    Everyone previously affected then had no trouble falling asleep, and no further need of temazepam. They also reported a general overall improvement, with better energy and cognitive function after their now increased morning dose, and better relaxation in the evenings, on top of falling asleep with no difficulty. I was only one of some 30 or more patients who had been affected by taking even doses with the last one at bedtime.

    If you're on 20mg, a good dosing protocol is 10 - 7.5 - 2.5, or 7.5 - 5 - 5 - 2.5 if you respond better to more frequent dosing. Some do, some don't. But definitely not 5 - 5 - 5 - 5. You'll struggle in the mornings and be too wired later in the day and/or at night.

    Hope that helps :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
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  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    That sounds wise. I generally take 10-10-5 which works fairly well most days.

    You'd asked about Prometrium. It's bioidentical progesterone, FDA approved, in pill form.

    The dexamethasone was to prevent allergic reaction to paclitaxel. The last time I was on it, I spent a week afterwards like a fighter pilot on speed, tired but wired, unable to sleep. My adrenals haven't recovered.

    Also, my doc has me on magnesium malate in the AM for energy and mag glycinate in the PM for sleep. One lesson I learned the hard way is most magnesium products widely available are contaminated with arsenic, which blocks ATP production. I had measurable toxicity. Now, I only use magnesium products from Seeking Health, Designs for Health, Thorne Research or Doctors Best.
     
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  10. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    One of the many symptoms I had for many years when my adrenals weren't producing sufficient cortisol but excess DHEA, was sudden blackness that would come over my vision and I think nasty dizziness too. I also had very low bp but none of this was picked up by my GP. They used to like the fact that my bp was always low but don't think they ever saw it when it was around 90/45 on the odd occasion when I was feeling particularly terrible.

    I did need Fludrocortisone from time to time but now I am on 6mg Prednisolone for many years my bp has been perfect, around 127/75 which isn't bad for somebody who will be 69 this Friday. I have experienced high bp too but that is when its too hot or I have had too much tea when the weather is hot and then I need 20 mg Propananol to bring it back down which it does usually within the hour. My thyroid decides to swing into slight overactivity from time to time and that will also give me too high bp and on the odd occasion I will have to cut back on the Pred but this never lasts for more than a few weeks and then I start getting symptoms from my adrenals (exhaustion, pain and even anxiety) and need to start gradually raising my dose again till I get to 6mg which seems to be just right for me. (I have Hashimotos too and take 2 grains natural dessicated thyroid plus 25 mcg thyroxine daily).

    When I hear about people with low bp all the time plus exhaustion I always think it relates to under functioning adrenals and that if extra salt doesn't work and they don't want to take any steroid because of all the negative stuff they keep hearing then unfortunately they are going to continue feeling dreadful and unable to lead any sort of normal life.

    Pam
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
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  11. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I am the same, if ever I have felt low cortisol symptoms in an evening, say after doing a lot more activity than I would normally do then I just cannot sleep if I take a bit of extra h/c. Even 2.5 mg h/c taken at bedtime will keep me awake even if I need it because of low cortisol symptoms. I will be awake for hours and the only way of getting any sleep would be to take a quarter of 0.5 mcg clonazapan. Luckily my GP is very helpful and lets me have about 30 tablets of clonazapan a year but often they will last 14 months as I have never allowed myself to take more than a quarter at a time which is effective. Over the years I have been so grateful for this, I can remember some terrible nights when I would be in such a state because of lack of sleep but these days its miles better.

    The only time I get into trouble at night now will be when I have a throat infection or virus. Then I can still feel awful at night and completely different from how I feel normally.

    Pam
     
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  12. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @bertiedog

    Hi Pam,

    Yep, even a small amount can do it.

    Curiously, in the early stages of my adrenal insufficiency, way before taking any hydro at all, I often lay awake at night exhausted but with my brain whirring away and unable to sleep.

    When I was dx'd with adrenal insufficiency, I was told this was due to an "adrenal surge" - basically a delayed response from the adrenals producing their hormones much later in the day than they would normally do. Like playing catch-up with themselves, running late, that sort of thing.

    I also discovered how powerful a stimulant B5 is in facilitating production of adrenal hormones by mistakenly taking it at night and experiencing exactly the same symptoms as my old adrenal surge. I lay awake all night long, knackered but with my brain insistently picking over the most irrelevant pieces of visual and aural information it had gathered during the day. Things like a paint-chip on a door, or an empty crisp packet in the gutter, or someone's over-applied mascara, or any stupidly unimportant detail you can imagine.

    But it allowed me to learn about the role of B5 and the timing of adrenal production :)
     
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  13. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I don't yet understand how to quote small sections from a response, so bear with me.

    My GP in London, and the practice nurses, were the same about my BP.

    Mine was as low as 75/60, something ridiculous like that, and I would get pins and needles in my scalp from having my head on my pillow in bed, or in my hand from answering the phone and bending my elbow.

    "Oh! You must be SO fit to have such amazingly low blood pressure!" they used to gush, delightedly.

    "No, I'm bloody well not, I'm ILL! I feel like crap! Why can't you SEE that??!!" I used to explode back. They never did get it. (Sigh)

    I don't tolerate Fludro at all! It makes my eyes try to pop out of their sockets and I can't see anything without blurring.

    Many Happy Returns for Friday :)

    My normal BP, when I was still on the physiological 20mg hydro dose, is 110/70. On my nasty but apparently necessary supra-physiological doses, it's often c. 140/80. I don't like that much.

    Hashimoto's isn't really my area, however the apparent surge in thyroid activity causing your burst of hyperthyroid symptoms could, I suppose, be down to a T4 to T3 conversion block that sometimes starts to work again, hence a suddenly influx of T3 causing your symptoms, or the same with a possible T3 uptake issue. Or it could just as easily be something completely different, and not be thyroid related at all. It's difficult to know without having more information.

    Can I ask why you're on Armour as well as thyroxine? Where are you getting the Armour from? - I know Skinner used to supply it over here, but he died a while ago, and Barry Peatfield isn't a prescribing doctor anymore. Who are you seeing? :)

    Couldn't agree more re salt and other adrenal support!
     
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  14. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi @Learner1,

    You'd asked about Prometrium. It's bioidentical progesterone, FDA approved, in pill form.

    - Not progestins/ progestogens?



    The dexamethasone was to prevent allergic reaction to paclitaxel. The last time I was on it, I spent a week afterwards like a fighter pilot on speed, tired but wired, unable to sleep. My adrenals haven't recovered.

    - Ouch, poor you, Re the allergic response. They're never much fun.
    I remember feeling the same on Dexa. I don't think there can be many things more frustrating than to lie there, desperate to sleep, with your brain whirring round like a helicopter blade in overdrive.



    Also, my doc has me on magnesium malate in the AM for energy and mag glycinate in the PM for sleep. One lesson I learned the hard way is most magnesium products widely available are contaminated with arsenic, which blocks ATP production. I had measurable toxicity. Now, I only use magnesium products from Seeking Health, Designs for Health, Thorne Research or Doctors Best

    - Sounds like a good plan to me. I know a lot of people take mag mal at night, but as noted, it contributes to ATP, so not ideal, especially if there are difficulties relaxing and or sleeping at night.

    Thanks for the arsenic info. I didn't know that. I DO use a lot of Dr's Best products, but every Thorne Research product I've ever tried has reacted badly with me (I also seem to remember thinking that Thorne Research was identical to a differently branded much less expensive product range while I was browsing through iHerb one day.) Different products produce different responses in me. Makes life quite tricky! I've been using Source Natural's mag mal, plus Now's mag citrate for years. Do you know if either/both of those are contaminated?

    Pray tell, how do you block quote individual segments of someone else's posts? I haven't worked it out yet and am feeling quite dim as a result :-(
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  15. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Maybe try taking some salt if you're wiped out after steroid-taking time? Not B5, though :D
     
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  16. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    Hi @Jigsaw

    love your knowledge and experience :thumbsup:

    as you know Progesterone is really important between cholesterol and cortisol and it turned out I have a natural deficiency. This added to my adrenal problems. I now take Progesteron (and HC). Utrogestan is the European brand name for body identical progesteron. I also take NPC cream but that's for the female cycle. The Utrogestan pills I take solely for my adrenals. Just like a man or a woman after menopause needs progesteron in their adrenals.

    Oooh I still get mad at people complimenting low blood pressure! :mad:
    "No, you fool! Now the nutrients do not get pushed into my organs and tissues!"
    I was malnutritioned when I became ill, because of low BP. People seldom wonder what blood pressure actually does in the body.

    BP is still 90/60 instead of 120/100 but renin levels do not warrant Florinef.
    Yes, salt. With every cup of herbal tea :rofl:

    My Adrenal Insufficiency is directly caused by insomnia (plus being of a nervous disposition)
    I wake up every night in a sweat, after 4,5 hours of sleep. Every night since birth. Lay wide awake for 1,5 hours. Then get another hour of crappy sleep. My adrenals could compensate for about 35 years but then they said: :sleep:

    Last year I finally figured out the cause of the insomnia: my colon.
    It's Hepatic Flexure Syndrome (or perhaps Stenosis). Somehow my upper colon is blocked at night and stuff builds up, causing a stress reaction after 4,5 hours. I'm now on a low fibre diet and low residue diet and low gas diet (FODMAP) and I get 6 glorious hours of sleep. Plus the Human Growth Hormone surge that comes with REMsleep. On those days I can lower my HC.

    Like your avatar says, I too have been putting it all together and now I enjoy the results. A lot of self education and wondering was needed, no doctor could put it together for me.
     
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  17. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    :thumbsup:Hi @WoolPippi,

    Thankyou so much for the compliment :D It's very nice to be appreciated :D

    Progesterone is super-important for a huge range of critical functions, including effective pick-up of thyroid hormones, protecting (women in particular) against the oestrogen-driven cancers by balancing oestrogen levels, acting as a natural diuretic, promoting weight loss (because free oestrogen is regarded as being such a danger to the animal body that it stores any excess in a nice secure unit called a fat cell, which is also the reason why cows and chickens are fed oestrogen, since increasing their weight increases their value at market), regulating blood sugar, normalising zinc and copper levels, and promoting new bone formation (osteoblasts - osteoBlasts Build new bone, osteoCLasts clear old bone so that new bone can be laid down on a stable foundation) - all kinds of non-gyny-related functions.

    John Lee has done some great work on progesterone and oestrogen - a bit about it here - http://www.johnleemd.com/physiological-effects-estrogen-progesterone.html

    I remember the first time I applied Wellspring's "Serenity" progesterone cream. Within 20 minutes, I just went "Ahhhhhhhhhh....." and felt relaxed for the first time in months. Magical stuff, progesterone. It struck me when I was working with Barry Peatfield (who introduced me to progesterone) that every last one of the thyroid and adrenal patients who came to his clinic had oestrogen dominance, i.e., a progesterone deficiency. An awful lot of thyroid and adrenal issues can be greatly improved, and sometimes completely resolved, by supplementing progesterone.

    It HAS to be bio-identical, and not synthetic progestins, in order to work properly, though, despite what conventional medicine says on the subject. It also can't be Yam, one of the biggest scams going. The human body does NOT convert yam into progesterone, as is claimed by the natural medicine industry. That's a massive con.

    Adrenal and thyroid function are so inter-dependent. Dysfunction in either will cause dysfunction in the other, especially with the hypo/ insufficiency states.

    The amount of progesteone (and oestrogen) produced by the adrenals is tiny by comparison to the amount produced by the ovaries, but is nonetheless crucial. I'm not sure where else men produce it, but I think the male body, logically, must have another source of progesterone to balance their oestrogen....or maybe their adrenal production is greater than ours....I honestly don't know, because it's not something I've ever researched. Hmmm. That's got me wondering now!

    Agreed re: low BP. It is not always desirable to have low BP, especially when it's dropped from 70/60 to 60/45 on standing. It drove me mad when those nurses kept telling me how fit I was when I could barely crawl out of bed to use the loo. The sitting/standing test should be done immediately on standing to accurately reflect how promptly the adrenals are responding to the gravity-induced drop when you stand up, and yet my endo clinic insist on me standing up for 5 whole minutes before they re-test. Standing up kills me, so causes stress, which increases my BP, plus 5 minutes is more than enough time for slow adrenals to work up at least some level of response, so, IMHO and according to what I was taught and have learnt since, having someone wait for 5 minutes makes it a pointless exercise.

    Talking during BP tests also raises your BP (which may be why having visitors, seeing friends, chatting on the phone, etc, might initially make us feel better) and the staff at my clinic seem intent on asking me questions during the standing part of my BP tests. Anyone would think they were doing all they could to avoid finding a postural drop.......:vomit: Or maybe I'm just too cynical for my own good.

    90/60 is still low. Have you been checked for postural hypotension? Do you know if it drops even lower when you stand up? Do you go dizzy, lightheaded, wobbly, when you stand up "too quickly" (which is a nonsense pseudo-reason, because healthy adrenals respond instantly, however fast you stand up) ? Are you meeting your salt cravings? Is it perhaps worth trying to take more salt to try and get your BP up into a healthier range, just while you're still trying to get to the bottom of your weak adrenal function? Just a thought :)

    That's very interesting about the link between your colon and your insomnia. Thanks for explaining that. I enjoy getting new information. Gives me more puzzle-pieces :thumbsup:

    Incidentally, GH is produced during NREM sleep, not REM sleep. Non Rem includes the stuff so many of us lack, the Stage 3 Deep Sleep restorative stuff. Pls see here, although this article says S4 is part of Deep Sleep, too, which is slightly different from the info on sleep stages I've before -

    https://sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/what-happens-when-you-sleep

    I'm so pleased you've managed to resolve your "interesting colon", LOL, through dietary changes. (Isn't it satisfying when you manage to fix a broken bit?) Something else you might like to check/try is drinking more water. It occurs to me that if a low-fibre diet is helpful for your gut, then it could be that it isn't getting enough water to facilitate peristalsis. If high-fibre causes things to get stuck, it sounds like things are too dry in there.

    Don't worry too much about then needing a wee in the night if you increase your water intake, because as long as you enter Deep Sleep, your body will make ADH (anti diuretic hormone), which will stop you from needing to pee. Only happens in the night if you reach Deep Sleep, so waking up in the night for the loo can be an indication of not achieving S3/S4 Deep Sleep. - I'm always thrilled if I make it through the night without needing the loo! (@Mary @Learner1 - is your sleep interrupted by needing to pee?)

    Many thanks again for your response, WoolPippi

    (Sorry for yet another really long post - there always seems so much to discuss!)
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
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  18. olegsel

    olegsel

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    http://neurosciencenews.com/immune-neuroendocrine-7519/
    This alteration in hormone levels led to a dramatic decrease in the numbers of many immune cells, particularly affecting the precursors of T-cells and B-cells. In some cases, this resulted in a reduction of between 50 and 80 percent in the size of the spleen, thymus or lymph nodes. While experimental deactivation of the adrenal glands led to a reversal of this dramatic loss of immune cells, the mice treated in this manner remained susceptible to infections. However, an autograft of adrenal tissue, transplanted into these mice, conferred protection against infections. While the transplanted adrenals produce the hormones needed by the body, they are no longer subject to the dysfunctional nervous system control mechanisms which develop following high level spinal injury.
     
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  19. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Kierkegaard

    It is fact of physiology that EVERYONE's cortisol zeroes off at night-time. No-one has any readable levels of cortisol at night-time, under normal circumstances. No-one.

    Cortisol is a stress hormone, i.e., it is produced to cope with short-term stress (along with a huge array of other functions), and it's this excess cortisol that keeps some people, even Normals with worries on their mind, awake at night. It is NOT supposed to be in your system at night. If people on replacement cortisol take it too late in the day, or at night, it keeps them awake. If you read up on the circadian rhythym of cortisol production, you will see this.

    It is also an anti-inflammatory hormone. The reason that cortisol shots stop panic attacks, if indeed they do, is because that individual is unable to produce sufficient cortisol endogenously to cope with the circumstances that led to the panic attack. A far better and more immediate way of stopping a panic attack in its tracks, dead, almost instantly, is to apply pressure with your thumb to the point of the jaw, and to repeatedly run your thumb with an even pressure, down from just below the point of the jaw down the natural groove you will find there in your neck. This is done from point of jaw to base of neck, down that groove, repeatedly, until the attack stops. It breaks the feedback loop that is being created by the vagus nerve and is perpetuating the panic attack.

    Yes, it is responsible for gluconeogenesis, but I can assure you that low/ no nightly cortisol is not the reason you wake in the night.

    Cortisol production starts at around 4-5am, peaks to wake you up at around 7am (or later in the darker months due to the impact of other sleep hormones affected by light), and declines steadily throughout the day. The decline reached by around 11pm is what makes everyone with functional adrenals feel sleepy. If you take cortisol or cortisol stimulants like B5, from which (+cholesterol) pregnenolone is made, or cortisol itself, it will prevent you from sleeping, and leave you physically exhausted but with your mind racing.

    People with poor adrenal function frequently experience an adrenal surge, whuch is to say that their adrenals fail to produce the early morning levels, and only finally reach decent levels late in the day, like a delayed response.

    Also, it is absolutely normal for body temperature to drop by several degrees during the night. Body temperature is lowest at 4am. It is recommended to keep your sleeping environment cooler than your living environment because it encourages maintenance of the lower temperature that your body drops to during sleep.

    If your thyroid function is insufficient, you will wake every morning with a below-normal temperature. This is part of dx'ing low thyroid function, and is kniwn variously as the Basal Temperature Test, or the Barnes Basal Temperature test. It's something that the pioneering thyroid doctor, Broda Barnes, wrote about several decades ago.

    I hope that helps.

    Jigsaw.
     
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  20. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    Can you explain this more. I apply even pressure with my thumb as I go from the point of my jaw (the middle below the mouth) down my neck to the base of my neck where there is a grove. This hurts my adams apple. Is doing it this way correct?
     

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