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Vitamin B6, Folic Acid immediate effects?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Rita1979, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    Hello,

    some days ago my Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate and Folic acid pills arrived and I started taking the, today. About a bit more than half an hour ago, I took one quarter of a 50mg p5ph (~12mg) and one pill with 800µg of folic acid (not folate!).

    The whole morning I felt bit agitated since I had redceived some difficult news and was on the phone trying to find a solution.

    Now suddenly, I turned very tired, somehow relaxed but also a bit anxious and have some mild pressude in my head and there was a moment when I thought my body was preparing for the next panic attack, anxiety, tension and agitated. I had panic attacks for one year, but didn't have any for at least 6 months and whatever caused them, the last months I could clearly feel that the time of the panic attacks was over. Today it didn't seem so...

    I am not tired enough to sleep, but also not fit enough to concentrate and to some work. It somehow feels like random nothingness, my thoughts are slow and a bit messy. Everything feels slow. The relaxation it is actually very nice, I could feal how it was spreading thoughout my body, neverthesess, the mental slowness and sleepiness, make it a bit difficult to enjoy, since I should actually work :) also the anxiety and head pressure raise questions about what happens.

    Since it happens so instantaneously I was wondering if it was the effect of either folic acid or P5Ph. But the p5phdose is really low... since I know that I can react sensible to certain supplements I split the pill into four pieces and took the smallest one for the beginning.

    Can this be a reaction to...? what...?

    Together with the p5ph and folic acid I also took (but for longer already so I don't assume that the effect is from that) 25mg Zinc, 1 g Vitamin C, 600mg Omega 3 fatty acids, 500mg B5, 5 mg B12.

    I left out my B-Complex since it also contains 125mg of B6 and I first wanted to understand the effect p5ph has on me.

    What experiences do you have, have you read and heard?

    Thank you for your input :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  2. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    My husband is an overmethylator but he can tolerate methylfolate and methylB12, which is not what would be expected. However, he can not seem to tolerate P5P. Both times he tried it, he got a reaction similar to what you describe; adrenaline and a sort of agitation. Very unpleasant. In general, he is prone to adrenaline bursts that don't go away as soon as they should. After getting his genetic testing done, we realized that the reason for this is that his MAO system is inefficient at breaking down adrenaline. Something about P5P activates this system for him. Maybe you are having a similar issue.

    Later in your post you mentioned that you also took 500mg of B6 (which is P5P), which seems like a really high dosage on top of the 50mg P5P you already took. Is this a typo?

    My recommendation would be to try the P5P and folic acid in isolation to figure out which of the two is causing this reaction. Which brings me to my big question, which is: why are you taking folic acid?
     
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  3. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    I think you misunderstood. The oposite actually happened. I suddenly was very tired. The feeling of agitation happened right before and is entirely unrelated to the p5p becuse it was there already almost the entire morning. Also, it was 12.5 mg of p5p, one quarter of 50mg.

    Now I was sleeping for three hours because I was so tired.

    The B5 I started to take becuase of the skin problems I had after I started with the high B12. I am taking it already for some months and the package is almost empty and probably I won't start with a new onw after that.

    Folic acid ist that high because I am anemic and developed problems after I took B12. I also had severe iron deficiency, so it is kind of unclear how this influenced the blood values, because iron and B12 or folic acid deficiency cause the parameters to move into opposite directions such that they can mask each other. I am taking folate 1000mg already for several month and had no adverse reactions to it.
     
  4. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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  5. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    @Mary Thank you! What you describe in that post sounds very familiar. I will try to keep this updated as well, such that it might be another experience report. All those interactions among Vitamins are really complicated. Three years ago it was the Vitamin D Magnesium relation that was causing some problem.

    And since I was today switching from folic acid to Methylfolate*, it might also explain the immediate reaction. I think I have some pills with Magnesium (375mg) and Potassium (300mg), but they also contain 4.2 mg B6 (hcl) and 7.5µg B12 together with Vitamin C and Mangan. Will it make a difference? The amounts are very small compared to what I already took so I guess it will not make that much of a difference? That is the only supplement with potassium I currently have at home and shops here are closed already.

    *there was a typo confusing the two...
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  6. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    Sorry, yes, it is a typo... I meant B5 and I corrected it in the original post. I am really not too focussed today... thinking is heavy.
     
  7. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Rita1979 - it might not be a good idea to take that additional supplement you have which has 300 mg potassium as well as several other nutrients, when you're trying to sort this out and figuring out what is causing what. It's generally best to do one new thing at a time. Otherwise you won't know what you're reacting to.

    If you have any high potassium foods at home - tomato or vegetable juice, bananas have some potassium though not a lot, or sweet potatoes, coconut water - I would take some of these if you have any of them on hand. Otherwise I'd wait until you can get to the store.

    low-sodium V8 and tomato juice are high in potassium and low in sugar, so I like them for a potassium source. I also take potassium gluconate - 800 - 1000 mg a day in divided doses. I'm not telling you to take this amount. If you read the link I provided, it gives more info, so do read it before starting a supplement.

    BTW, why are you taking folic acid instead of folate? is the folic acid in addition to the folate you were taking? and even if so, why folic acid instead of more folate?

    Good luck, I hope this helps!
     
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  8. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    At the moment I just wanted to see if it will make me feel better. All the other supplements I was taking for quite some time, the symptoms of lethargy and the heart palpitations I have already for quite some time. It is almost buddha-like, since I almost don't care about anything anymore. Which is kind of okay, since otherwise I would probably be extremely stressed because of the existential pressure I have at the moment. On the other hand I am lacking almost every motivation to do anything and thinking is extremely hard. Moments of clarity are rare.

    I have tomatoe juice :) Now I know why I didn't drink it the last weeks...

    The B Vitamins I took today, are 500mg B5, 5g Biotin

    5000µg MethylB12 plus 1000µg Methylfolate (actually 1000, not 800) and the 12.5mg of p5p

    together with
    100µg Selenium yeast, 25mg Zinc, 1 g Vitamin C, 100µg Iodine, 600mg Omega 3.

    I guess that was it. It is a bit difficult since I actually have many more and I am not taking all of them every day.

    Sorry, I think I entirely messed up these two terms. I am taking MethyFolate since today. In the previous months I was actually taking folic acid (the synthetic version)...

    I read about that some people have problems in converting the synthetic forms into their active forms, so I wanted to see the difference. Then there was this other post in this forum that decribes some of the effects of MethylB12 and that it should actually be combined with MethylFolate. I was thinking about it already for quite some time and after last week I had an extreme week with PMDD and I read that B6 might help, I thought it were time to try it now and ordered the MethylFolate together with it.

    The last months have been a nightmare, since I am almost doing nothing, watching my life going doing and not even really caring. Either I suffer extreme emotional distress (probably due to the hormonal disbalances because of the PMDD) or it is as if reality starts to slowly disappear more and more and I don't care at all.

    I think your hint at potassium could fit very well, since I am also quite low in appetite and the lethargy and tiredness even turned cooking and dish washing into a challenge. So that would of course enhance the potassium disbalance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  9. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Hi @Rita1979 - okay, it makes more sense now. Yes, many people (including me) have trouble converting folic acid into a useable form. My potassium dropped rather badly when I started taking methylfolate and fortunately I had read Freddd's posts about this so knew what to do. So starting methylfolate could very suddenly cause fatigue due to low potassium.

    Your supplements sound okay but I know we are all different and react differently, etc. I hope the potassium makes a difference for you. One good thing is you should know rather quickly if potassium is helping - I would drink a couple of glasses of tomato juice today and drink lots more tomorrow and see if you improve at all, it can take a couple of days and maybe consider a supplement, depending on how you do.
     
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  10. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    What form of iron supplementation are you using and how are you taking it (are you combining it with things that increase iron absorption)? I have a long history of iron deficiency anemia and have found a protocol that works well to raise my ferritin, just to see if you want any advice on this.
     
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  11. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    @Mary Thank you :) I feel better now... I am not sure if this is due to the tomato juice or just my usual late night energy kick. It is the same most of the days. I wake up entirely broken, then I am fighting the fog in my head all day long and finally after being awake for at least 10 to 12 hours I start to feel calm with a clear mind.

    Today it was just so clear that maybe it was related to the supplements, since this morning I was quite motivated and at parts so "excited" that I was one the one hand very happy to feel energetic and on the other hand I was wondering how that way I could keep my chasing thoughts under control in order to be productive. But I was happy because finally there was some energy and I hoped for some good days. Then suddenly after I took my Vitamins I entirely dropped and went to bed. Interesting was that I was also yawning, which happens rarely and usually indicates something which for me feels like real tiredness instead of the exhaustion I usually feel.

    I am thinking about stopping most of the B vitamin supplements for some time, except one low (normal ;) ) dosed multivitamin. Last year when I started with the Vitabay 125 I could actually feel some improvement, but it has vanished and recently I thought that I feel better on days, when I don't take any supplements. Maybe I have to figure out which one it is.

    @Basilico Thank you :) As soon as my ferritin value was at thirty I thought it were fine and neglected iron more or less. Ocassionally I took 100mg of Fe2+ for few days. I tolerate it quite well. Sometimes I have a bit of stomach pain but this resolves quickly and doesn't happen too often. I managed to have my ferritin value to arrive at 40 µg/l but as soon as I stop supplementing regularly it drops again to 30 µg/l within few months. I started Vitamin A 25.000 iE in order increase iron absorption, I am also always taking it together with some vitamin C and the capsules themselves already contain Vitamin C. If I remember correctly B12 also enhances iron absorption.

    However, iron is my stepchild and the last blood test indicated with 30 µg/l that I have to return to supplementing iron. It is just so difficult to make it fit into my routine, since zinc and iron and copper and magnesium all interfere with each other.

    And now in the last blood results Hemoglobine, erythrocytes and hematocrit were all three below the reference range, while MCH, MCV and MCHC were normal. Since I clearly have some inflammation related problems that were increasing in the last months, it might well be that ferritin is actually lower.
     
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  12. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    @Basilico so... :) Yes, I would like to hear your advice :) I am not sure if what I wrote above sounded like I were not interested... I thought I would answer your question about how and what I was doing first and then wait for your answer.

    So yes, I am very interested in the protocol that helped you :)
     
  13. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    By the time I learned that I had iron deficiency anemia, my ferritin was down to 11 and my other values were under the anemia threshold. In looking back at years worth of previous bloodwork, I realized that my ferritin had been almost this low (and I was likely anemic) for more than 10 years! In that time I'd gone to a million doctors about fatigue and not a single one mentioned that my ferritin was ridiculously low. So, I took it into my hands to read all the research about anemia and iron and which things interfered with absorption and which things improved absorption, which levels were optimal, which form was best, etc... Here is in a nutshell what I learned:

    1) Optimal levels of ferritin are between 100-150. Once it goes below 80, iron supplementation should be begun. This is not to say that many people don't have levels lower than this, but below 80 is really sub-optimal.

    2) I have found that the gentlest and most effective form of iron is iron bisglycinate. I use the Solgar brand called Gentle Iron. I am prone to constipation and have not had any upset stomach or contipation issues with this brand.

    3) Doctors typically prescribe salt forms of iron (ferrous fumarate and ferrous sulfate), which are the forms that are in most general iron supplements. I use ferrous bisglycinate which instead of being a salt is chelated to an amino acid. From what I've read, this is a superior form of iron that not only causes less GI upset, but is more bioavailable.

    4) I originally avoided consuming certain foods along with my iron supplements. I'm not sure if this is necessary, and lately I've been making exceptions to this rule. Things like milk and eggs inhibit iron absorption. It is easy to search for a list online of foods that inhibit/increase iron absorption, but these are the main ones. The part of my protocol that I never deviate from is to combine my iron with Vitamin C and a little sugar. Ascorbic acid and sugar both greatly increase how well iron is absorbed. I get ascorbic acid in bulk from Trader Joe's and add 500mg-1,000mg in a glass of water with a teaspoon of sugar, and use that to take my supplements (it's like a weird lemonade flavor). You can also eat fruit for sugar instead of using table sugar if you prefer.

    Using my protocol, I was able to boost my ferritin from 11 to 111 within the span of 6 months. My main issue now is trying to figure out why it plummets if I don't continue supplementation (I have no risk factors for low iron issues). Hopefully this helps!
     
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  14. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    Thank you. I think in my case one reason is that I don't take the supplement regularly. Since I want to create ideal conditions for the iron absorption and I rarely have them in my day it is always iron that I "forget". E.g. I have a hard time in going through my days without coffee, so I drink it all day long, iron absorption is however impaired by coffee, so I almost never have these "ideal" conditions. At some time I decided that impaired absorption is probably better than no absorption and I managed to get to 40µg/l. But never higher... Now with the additional zinc iron seems to become more and more important. I will see what solution I find for this.

    At the moment everything seems so complicated and I am somehow sick of the supplements. While at the beginning I could definitely feel how they made me feel better, the effect starts to wean off and also there is so much one can do wrong. Without a good specialist on my side it seems almost impossible not to do any harm to myself by supplementing something without really knowing what I am doing. Nevertheless, I guess zinc helped me to get rid of my ANA (which were really high and are now at zero) and also to overcome the pancreatic insufficiency I had. So something must be right in all what I am doing, nevertheless, there is always something I overlook or simply do not know.

    I learned about the Ferritin threshold of 80µg/l only recently and that is when I also started to think abou iron again. My ferritin value was at 13 four years ago but I didn't have signs of anemia in my red blood cells, which might be due to the deficiencies in B Vitamins at the same time and maybe it is no surprise that after I started B12 and Folic Acid last year that now the blood results are hinting in the anemia direction.

    I told the doctor that I am very tired and have difficulties in concentration and processing information. At some days it is as if my mind just is unable to process anything at all. Even with all the red blood cell parameters being below the reference range and other parameters being "our of order" he explicitly wrote on the report that with respect to his opinion my tirednes, sleep problems and concentration problems have a psychological cause. He talked with me for 30 minutes, I have certain rheumatologic parameters that have been out of range as well, but yet he knows.

    I had hypothyroidism as well and so I thought most of my problems were related to that. It is only in these days that I am actually considerring ME/CFS as a possibility. I never know when I can do what with what consequences. On some days I can go out and do things but then I know that I need several days to recover, while on other days I am almost unable to eat. On many days (almost once a day) I have body pain allover, feel incredibly cold and am shivering (temperature rising, but never high enough to be considerred fever) that is why doctors were considerring rheuma as a possibility. Together with the devastating exhaustion I can just see how my life is slipping through my hands and I am unable to do anything excpet watching how I loose controll with every day. I was never like that. Until six years ago, I did whatever I wanted to do and I managed. I was energetic and active. It will in my region be however next to impossible to find a doctor that can do a ME/CFS diagnosis and I ran out of money last month and have no income at the moment.

    Now, I gave up all my interests, lost many friends and am hardly doing anything expect surviving, hoping that it is something that I can overcome with the right supplements, since there are also real physiologic paramters that show that something is "off". While from outside, doctors and familiy keep telling me that I am fine and that I should just not be so...

    Anyway... with respect to storing iron in the body there is a relation to Vitamin A, I don't remember the exact details and the mechanism, but you might want to look at that as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  15. Rita1979

    Rita1979

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    I use a small amount of orange juice, fill the rest with water, add 1 g of ascorbic acid and that is the basis of all the supplements I take, expect if it is selenium as vitamin C decreases selenium absorption, I am not sure about selenium yeast however... and in the mean time over the course of the day I add magnesium citrate, not with other mineral supplements of course. I really like this weird lemonade taste, especially with that extra of acid from vitamin C and the magnesium citrate :)
     
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  16. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    I can definitely fall into this trap, too. You know that saying 'Perfect is the enemy of good' or something to that effect...From what I've been reading lately, it seems that even if certain things like coffee and dairy inhibit iron absorption, taking it with ascorbic acid and a little sugar can override the inhibition and make it almost negligible. So maybe in your case, don't stress about the inhibitors.

    I can definitely relate to this! I periodically just stop taking everything because I get tired of supplementing things without feeling improvements. Iron is the one thing I keep returning to, because I know that having anemia is not the way to feel better!

    It really sucks when there is clearly a physical problem and doctors are too ignorant and egotistical to accept that they don't know what the problem is and instead assume it must be in your mind. I really don't know what the hell all these doctors are doing during their million years of medical school, but it's clearly a big fat waste of time.

    I will definitely look into vitamin A...thanks for the lead! Anything I can investigate to figure out what the heck is happening to my iron I will track down since clearly none of the dozens of doctors with medical degrees can be bothered to figure it out, so I've got to do it myself.

    I'm sorry you are having such a rough time. My husband often has the same problem of never knowing exactly what his limits are...some days he can *almost* seem like a normal person, but other days he gets PEM from standing for 10 minutes. The only thing that seems to actually help both of us either prevent or reduce mild PEM crashes is liposomal glutathione and non-denatured whey. It's not a cure or anything, but it's one of the few (maybe the only things) that we've taken that actually seems to have a noticeable effect. Have you tried either of these?
     

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