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Visible and near-infrared spectra collected from the thumbs of patients with CFS for diagnosis

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Ember, May 16, 2012.

  1. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Thanks, Rich, that makes sense. That's one less thing niggling at my mind now. :)
  2. Guido den Broeder

    Guido den Broeder *****

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    The blood flow acceleration will be linked to the low blood volume.

    These are outcomes that can be consistently expected in ME. The others with a diagnosis of CFS are likely to have a different disease.

    Is the full text available somewhere?

    By the way, I noticed a while ago that when I cut my thumb, the blood drips faster than it used to do.
  3. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    A few years ago, when I had some food and environmental sensitivity tests, it took us more than half an hour to draw a few drops of blood from my fingers. We had to try all 10 fingers and thumbs, and nothing would flow into the capillary tubes. The nurses said they'd done thousands of these tests and they'd never seen anything like this. Since we're interested in the blood volume and blood flow here, with particular reference to thumbs, I'm just wondering whether anybody else here has had similar difficulties in drawing blood from the thumbs and fingers?
  4. Vitalic

    Vitalic Senior Member

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    I had an autonomic index done and one of the tests was blood oxygenation level, my p02 at baseline was 43mmHg the reference value being 60mmHg, that seems to contradict these findings as I would expect blood oxygenation to be higher and c02 to be lower, the inverse of which seems to be true for me.
  5. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    I've heard of that in reference to antiphospholipid syndrome.
  6. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi,ukxmrv.

    I don't think so. I think Les's observations were a result of elevated oxidative stress, which is also a prominent feature of ME/CFS. Dr. Majid Ali did a study some years back in which he corrected RBC deformation by giving vitamin C.
    Les also found that B12 helped, and I think that we can understand that now in view of the link between the partial methylation cycle block and glutathione, which is the basis of the antioxidant enzyme system.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  8. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mark.

    Did you happen to have your sed rate measured at that time? If it was less than 5 mm per hour, it suggests hypercoagulation. David Berg found this in many PWMEs, and assigned it the name ISAC (Immune System Activation of Coagulation).

    Best regards,

    Rich
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Vitalic.

    I think that the explanation is that there are some countervailing things going on, and the overall results depend on which is dominant. I think it's true that in ME/CFS, several cell types, including the skeletal muscle cells, the heart muscle cells, cells of the immune system, cells in some of the endocrine glands, and cells of the brain and nervous system suffer from mitochondrial dysfunction, and thus use less oxygen and generate less carbon dioxide than normal.

    However, the respiratory center in the brain stem works to counter this, by slowing and shallowing the breathing. The effect of that is to raise the CO2 and lower the oxygen content of the blood.

    Another thing that apparently happens is that the muscles used in breathing can also suffer mito dysfunction, and this can also cause shallowing of the breathing, also raising CO2 and lowering oxygen in the blood.

    Perhaps one or both of these could explain your measurement.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  10. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Thanks to SOC and Rich for the info re: antiphospholipid syndrome and hypercoagulation. Hypercoagulation sounds right as a description of it, I'll mention that term to my GP and see if that suggests any tests to him. I didn't get any other tests at that time, but if I can I'll get the 'sed rate' test done.

    It was certainly an odd experience that they couldn't draw the blood, they assured me it had never happened to them before, so although it's obviously not a bothersome thing it might well be a really good clue. Although all my previous blood work had come back normal, thanks to this forum I did get a load of tests done last year that hadn't been tried, and all 4 times during the course of the year my white blood cell count came out a couple of points above the reference range, so it was good to get some kind of significant result under the NHS for a change. Maybe if I follow up that blood work further I might get some further useful clues.
  11. Guido den Broeder

    Guido den Broeder *****

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    The thumb may yield different measurements than other locations. I have a low oxygen saturation in general (around 91%), and finding a vessel to draw blood from in my right arm is a fail. But the thumb is no problem.

    Note btw that a low saturation outcome can be the consequence of methomoglobin (which gives you a bue skin).
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mark.

    According to David Berg, if a person has hypercoagulation due to ISAC, as suggested by a low sed rate, what is going on is this:

    There is a set of proteins in the blood called the coagulation cascade. It has two branches. One branch deposits fibrin in the capillaries, and the other branch removes it. Normally, they are appropriately balanced so that the blot clots when necessary to prevent hemorrhage, but it doesn't clot when it isn't supposed to, forming blockages in the blood circulation, leading to stroke, heart attack, etc.

    According to David, when the immune system becomes activated because of a pathogen, it stimulates some deposition of fibrin to confine the pathogen, and this is normal. However, some people have inherited polymorphisms in one or more of the proteins in the coagulation cascade. The result can be too much fibrin deposition when the immune system responds to infection by a pathogen. This is what he called ISAC (immune system activation of coagulation). The problem with this, according to him, is that it makes it difficult for oxygen to diffuse out of the red blood cells and through the wall of the capillary to supply oxygen to tissue cells.

    Conventional physicians usually do not pay attention to low values of the sed rate. They are trained to look for high values, which indicate inflammation or infection. Also, the conventional tests of the coagulation system are directed at detecting hypocoagulation, i.e. hemophilia. Hypercoagulation is not recognized by conventional medicine.

    To look for hypercoagulation, it is necessary to run other tests. One of them is to test for soluble fibrin monomer. David Berg developed panels of tests, which are now offered in the U.S. by the Esoterix lab in Phoenix, Arizona, which bought out his old Hemex lab some years ago. Esoterix is now a part of LabCorp. I don't know if these types of tests are offered in the UK.

    The treatment for this is either low-dose heparin or one of the proteolytic enzyme products, such as nattokinase or lumbrokinase, combined with something to hold down the viruses, such as a transfer factor or an antiviral. If the latter is not used, removing the fibrin can cause a flare of the infection, and the immune system then activates more, and the hypercoagulation gets worse. This is all according to David Berg.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  13. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Thanks very much Rich, that's a great explanation. Makes total sense to me, and fits well, because my persistently high white cell count does suggest persistent infection, and so does my symptomology.

    I'm also now wondering whether some aspects of my 'itching' or allodynia could be related, because my non-medical mind imagines whether small-scale clotting in peripheral veins and/or arteries might cause itchiness in the legs when standing up for a few minutes, and skin sensitivity which fluctuates depending on the level of immune response to the infection.

    But I'm in danger of taking this thread off-topic if we continue with this much longer - I guess we're supposed to be talking about thumbs here. :D
  14. Vitalic

    Vitalic Senior Member

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    Thanks for your input, that does sound plausible, this may explain why perceived shortness of breath or a feeling of being "air hungry" is a prominent trait in ME/CFS.
  15. Don Quichotte

    Don Quichotte Don Quichotte

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    The PO2 level and the oxygen saturation are two different variables.
    Theoretically (if you have no red blood cells) your PO2 level can be normal but the O2 saturation will be 0%.
    (That is why the O2 sat. is corrected for the level of hemoglobin, which is only a partial correction because the oxy-hemoglobin saturation curve depends on other variables as well).
    see here for further details-http://www.ventworld.com/resources/oxydisso/dissoc.html
    The PO2 level is different in arterial, venous and capillary blood, so without knowing where the blood was drawn from it is hard to tell if this a normal or abnormal result.
    If your test was done on venous blood the PO2 level you mention is within the normal range.

  16. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Maybe its time for an update on that theory :)

    Is that results section from a different study? (or am I looking at the wrong one?)

    The results section that was posted way back i nthe thread is from a 2009 paper. Here is the abstract from the present paper.

  17. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    in the paper it says


    if deoxyhemoglobin absorbs more at 760 and the peak was between 7-800 - how could oxyhemoglobin rates be higher in CFS? It sounds like deoxyhemoglobin rates are higher (as well as copper oxidation by cytochrome c oxidase)

    deoxyhemoglobin is - hemoglobin not combined with oxygen, formed when oxyhemoglobin releases its oxygen to the tissues. High levels then should relate to high oxygen absorption in the tissues????
  18. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    later they say "this differentiation may be due to a change in oxyhemoglobin/deoxyhemoglobin and the oxidation of hemea + a3 to cytochrome c oxidase..."

    I attached the paper.

    Attached Files:

  19. JT1024

    JT1024 Senior Member

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    I found this interesting since I recently saw a publication regarding Fibromyalgia and "Skin Response" as mentioned below:

    ORIGINAL PAPER
    The Correlation of Laboratory Tests and Sympathetic Skin Response Parameters by Using Artificial Neural Networks in Fibromyalgia Patients

    Özhan Özkan, Murat Yildiz and Etem Köklükaya

    Abstract
    Fibromyalgia syndrome (FMS) is a chronic musculoskeletal disease which causes dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system. Sympathetic Skin Response (SSR) is a part of electrical impedance of body which is affected by the autonomic nervous system dysfunctions. In this study, values obtained from the results of the patients diagnosed with fibromyalgia syndrome, and healthy subjects blood samples in the laboratory conditions are recorded in Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Medicine, Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. SSR measurements are recorded from patients and healthy controls. Values of latency time, maximum amplitude and elapsed time between two stimulus parameters are obtained from recorded sympathetic skin response data by using Matlab software. The relationship between SSR parameters and laboratory tests is investigated by using artificial neural networks. As a result SSR seems to be a valid parameter in the classification of FMS.
    Keywords Sympathetic skin response – Fibromyalgia syndrome – Laboratory tests – Artificial neural networks – Autonomic nervous system
  20. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Nice connection...Thanks!

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