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Visible and near-infrared spectra collected from the thumbs of patients with CFS for diagnosis

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Ember, May 16, 2012.

  1. Ember

    Ember Senior Member

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    Clin Chim Acta. 2012 May 11. [Epub ahead of print]

    Sakudo A, Kuratsune H, Kato YH, Ikuta K.

    Department of Virology, Center for Infectious Disease Control, Research Institute for Microbial Diseases, Osaka University, Yamadaoka, Suita, Osaka 565-0871, Japan; Fatigue Clinical Center, 21st Century COE Program, Osaka City University Graduate School of Medicine, Abeno-ku, Osaka 545-8585, Japan.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22583968
  2. SOC

    SOC Back to work (easy, part-time work)

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    o_O They can do IR spect on thumbs and diagnose ME/CFS? How's that supposed to work? :confused: Weird, but cool.
  3. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Wouldn't collapsing/passing out be a bit more obviuos to investigate ???? But I'll have a good look my thumbs now.
    Merry likes this.
  4. Ember

    Ember Senior Member

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  5. SOC

    SOC Back to work (easy, part-time work)

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    (from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19248775)

    Curiouser and curiouser.

    Accelerated blood flow and energy metabolism? Increase in oxyhemoglobin? Do these sound right for ME/CFS? :confused:
  6. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    That does sound a little strange unless of course that accelerated blood flow and energy metabolism is being spent by an overactive immune system. No idea what increase in oxyhemoglobin even means. It doesn't sound like it fits ME/CFS to me, but I've looked at things wrong before. The increase in oxyhemoglobin looks as if it is in conjunction with decrease in water content, which could related to blood volume and attributte to POTS possibly.
  7. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    Any test they can come up with is ok with me. It will help establish ME as being real and that we are not just lazy or depressed. A test that's cheap and easy is far better than an expensive one!
    Little Bluestem and taniaaust1 like this.
  8. Ember

    Ember Senior Member

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    Add this study to the list: “This provides the first evidence of alterations in the fingernails of CFS patients which could be detected by IR spectroscopy. Possible explanations for the alterations will be discussed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19150612)...”
  9. SOC

    SOC Back to work (easy, part-time work)

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    It would be great if these studies are for real, but I don't have the background to understand what they're really about. At the moment all I can say is they are... unexpected. o_O I hoping, though, that they are going to move something forward for us.
  10. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Would this explain anything about the loss of fingerprints?

    Sushi
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Very interesting!!!!!
    Would this be related to lymph? One of the occasional symptoms for me is burning lymph coming out of the sides of the nails. This has happened in the middle toes and also on the thumb nails. I always thought it might be a precursor of neuropathy in feet. Maybe related to arthritis in hands? Fortunately this has stopped and hasn't happened for at least one year if not more, but at one time I couldn't stand cutting my toenails for that reason. I always felt something burning was escaping from there. It certainly felt as though my hands were on fire at the tips.
    This was cured through the use of Bains Derivatifs. I suppose they cool this burning in some way.
    Now that "heat" comes out only from a patch on my right forearm and from a patch behind my left thigh. As well as from the eyes, which is really worrying me. If this happens I do 2 hours of Bains Derivatifs and it is gone.
    But this is for me the sign that all is NOT well. I do not suffer from the symptoms I used to have and enjoy quite a lot of energy and mind clarity. Only this remains.
    1 - It could be that I am on the right path and that this will subside too. One hopes!!!!
    2 - It could be that I have alleviated some of the symptoms and that some decay is going on in secret, due to some internal problem which is not fixed yet. Very worrying.
    3 - It could also be that the cause of what had happened to me is lurking and that my efforts at being well are thwarted by some unknown exterior aggressor(s).
    Whilst I used to be torn between the two first hypotheses, I know tend to opt for the last. As worrying as #2 is, #3 makes me feel worse sometimes.
    Be well!
    Asklipia
  12. Tally

    Tally Senior Member

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    I think the reason why they measured it in thumbs is because fingers are one of the rare part of our body that is thin enough for the light to pass trough them (you know how when you press your finger on the flashlight it looks all red and transparent?). And they need the light to pass to the other side to be able to measure it.

    Pulse oxymeter works the same way.

    So, I don't think that they are trying to say that fingers in people with CFS/ME are different than in healthy individuals, simply that fingers are a spot where they can look inside our bodies by using light.
    SOC likes this.
  13. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    Oxyhaemoglobin is just haemoglobin which is doing its job of transporting oxygen from the lungs to the body proper.
    It's called oxyhaemoglobin when the oxygen is attached to it
  14. SOC

    SOC Back to work (easy, part-time work)

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    Thanks! I was just wondering about that when using my pulse-oxymeter this morning. It's a neat technology.

    What's really puzzling me at the moment is the abnormalities they found correlated to ME/CFS. Have we seen any other evidence of accelerated blood flow and energy metabolism? If anything, haven't indications been more in the opposite direction? And why an increase in oxyhemoglobin? Wouldn't that be a good thing for energy in the general way of things? Am I missing something?
  15. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    That seemed a little puzzling to me too, and of course I don't know what it means either, but it seems to me possible this could be a bit of a breakthrough. All I'm aware of previously is findings of low blood volume; could accelerated blood flow by related to that? And accelerated energy metabolism, maybe that could be consistent with other findings, in that it could explain why energy resources get depleted rapidly. So I don't know where this fits in, but my very vague impression is that it's suggesting certain aspects of metabolism operating at a faster rate than normal, which might well be consistent with resources getting depleted faster. Very vague thoughts I know, but that's the only way I can make sense of this one.
  16. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    I'm lucky that I've never collapsed or passed out. But I've had ME for decades.

    Jenny
  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, all.

    I would say that these results do make sense, but that the authors have interpreted them incorrectly.

    The decrease in water content corresponds to the diabetes insipidus (not to be confused with diabetes mellitus) found commonly in ME/CFS. In general. most PWMEs are hypovolemic because of this.

    The higher oxyhemoglobin corresponds to the mitochondrial dysfunction in ME/CFS, which produces less of a demand for oxygen, leaving more of it in the blood, bound to hemoglobin.

    The increased oxidation of the parts of cytochrome C oxidase, which is in the respiratory chain of the mitochondria, corresponds to the oxidative stress in the mitochondria in ME/CFS.

    I think these results fit very well with what we know of ME/CFS.

    Best regards,

    Rich


    Vis-NIR spectra showed sharp peaks at 694, 970 and 1060 nm and broad peaks in the regions of 740-760 and 830-850 nm. As these peaks are possibly related to oxyhemoglobin, cytochrome c oxidase and water, levels of these factors were compared between the two groups. Statistical analysis of the absorbance of Vis-NIR spectra showed a significant decrease in water content, a significant increase in oxyhemoglobin content, and a significant increase in the oxidation of heme a+a(3) and copper in cytochrome c oxidase in CFS patients.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    These changes imply accelerated blood flow and energy metabolism in the thumbs of CFS patients.
    Merry likes this.
  18. usedtobeperkytina

    usedtobeperkytina Senior Member

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    How does this relate to the one that was done by Sakudo that took drops of blood and was able to diagnose using near-infrared spectra...(don't know the rest of the word)...scopy? That study was the most exciting thing in the 2007 IACFS/ME Conference. Last I heard, the guy applied for patent. Hadn't heard anything else. I even look occasionally. So does this study released now have anything to do with the other one?

    Tina
    Emma likes this.
  19. Emma

    Emma

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    I've been wondering about that study as well. Does anyone know?
    usedtobeperkytina likes this.
  20. MDL

    MDL

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    "RESULTS:
    Vis-NIR spectra showed sharp peaks at 694, 970 and 1060 nm and broad peaks in the regions of 740-760 and 830-850 nm. As these peaks are possibly related to oxyhemoglobin, cytochrome c oxidase and water, levels of these factors were compared between the two groups. Statistical analysis of the absorbance of Vis-NIR spectra showed a significant decrease in water content, a significant increase in oxyhemoglobin content, and a significant increase in the oxidation of heme a+a(3) and copper in cytochrome c oxidase in CFS patients."
    ------------------------------------------
    This is a very exciting finding and consistent with what I had predicted.
    In my 2008 hypothesis "Chronic fatigue syndrome is caused by dysregulation of hydrogen sulfide metabolism", I specifically mentioned that" hydrogen sulfide binds to the mitochondrial enzyme cytochrome c oxidase, which is part of Complex IV of the electron transport chain, and attenuates oxidative phosphorylation and ATP production". I believe cytochrome c oxidase is a very important part of the puzzle and this research helps to highlight that fact. I hope they will go further in this line of work.

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