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Virus titer results from Dr. Chia... what does it mean?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Dallase1, May 12, 2018.

  1. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    SIBO/dysbiosis is extremely common in CFS. The most popular diets for SIBO/dysbiosis are the GAPS diet and the specific carbohydrate diet.

    Both either completely eliminate starchy foods like potatoes, rice, pasta etc. or almost completely eliminate them. So that's my main focus, to eliminate those starchy foods.

    That's where I would start I think, if I were you. Then tweak the diet until you get the best results from it. After that I would add herbs like neem, ceylon cinnamon, holy basil (which is also good as a sleep aid, so I take it at bedtime), oil of oregano etc.

    I don't know how familiar you are with die-off from the bacteria in your gut dying off but it can make you feel really awful. You probably experienced some when you were on the elimination diet to some degree.

    I would encourage you to make these changes slowly. Because as I said the die-off can be anywhere from mild to really, really awful. I would make one change at a time starting with diet and see how that goes.

    Then incorporate the other things after diet is well established. I'm happy to hear your CFS has improved! You must be doing something right!:thumbsup:

    Jim
     
  2. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    Jim,
    Thanks. I am extremely cautious about antibiotics as I went through three months of C Diff. I believe I got the SIBO from ingesting fecal transplant pills.
    Is SIBO a cause of CFS? I feel like if I eliminate it, it would eliminate at least half of my symptoms and fatigue. Do you feel like there’s anything else I could explore? I’m able to get through the day without a nap, so that’s a good thing
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.
  3. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    I agree. I have ready about many “immune system enhancing herbs” such as astralagus, mushrooms, and others. Are you familiar and are there any merits to these claims?
     
  4. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I am also extremely cautious about antibiotics, I only use herbs.

    This is what leading ME/CFS researcher Chris Armstrong says about gut dysbiosis and bacterial translocation in ME/CFS-

    Here is the cued up video where he makes this statement.

    So he is saying that he thinks SIBO/dysbiosis, causing increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut) and bacterial translocation into the bloodstream is causing CFS.

    This is another quote from the same CFS researcher-

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...20-2016-metabolomics.47485/page-6#post-791828

    He says here that he thinks a comprised gut causes post exertional malaise or PEM. The fatigue that is experienced after too much physical exertion in CFS.

    I agree with Chris Armstrong 100%, I think has got it exactly right.

    Jim
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, very familiar. Astragalus has shown some mild benefits against enterovirus infection in chronic CVB myocarditis (there nearest thing to the enterovirus infections found in ME/CFS). Astragalus is included in Equilibrant, as is shiitake mushroom, which may help give a Equilibrant a slight edge over regular oxymatrine; however, I don't think astragalus or shiitake will give you anything other than a very minor benefit in terms of fighting ME/CFS, if at all.

    The immunomodulators used in ME/CFS are often Th2 th Th1 shifters: they shift to the Th1 immune response, which is the one that fights viruses and intracellular bacteria infections. Oxymatrine shifts to Th1.

    Oxymatrine is the only herbal product that seems to make major impact on chronic enterovirus infection; other than that, it's only pharmaceuticals that have any effect. Interferon and ribavirin both work quite well for fighting enterovirus, and there are three published studies showing interferon helps ME/CFS; but there are reasons why these cannot be used long term, so unfortunately they are not the answer. But Dr Chia has seen some patients go into full remission for up to 14 months after interferon therapy.

    But there is a real need for pharmaceutical companies to try to develop new antivirals for enterovirus, as we have almost nothing for fighting this infection.
     
  6. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    That’s so fascinating. I think the best route for me is to try the Oxymatrine without all the added ingredients of the Equilibrant.
    I have attached my Chamydia pneumoniae results. It seems the IGG and IGM they are both over the “reference range”. I don’t have any respiratory issues though. Should this be something I should still treat with the antibiotic? I’m extremely cautious about antibiotics as I had C diff awhile back. Apparently some people are asymptomatic,
     

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  7. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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  8. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    Wow I think there’s a lot of truth to his statement. It definitely aligns with my issues verses these viruses. They both may be playing a part but I feel like this intestinal overgrowth is the major player and may allow my immune system to fight the viruses better (I’m not a doctor, just going my intuition). I took Fecal Transplant Pills five months ago to cure my C Diff. While it did that, it created massive issues in terms of fatigue and malaise. It was like my body was fighting all of it off for months. I finally treated the SIBO after I was down to about five foods and got some relief ! I tried something called the “elemental formula” which is made by integrative therapeutics. It worked wonders and was more effective than the herbs for me.
    Which treatments have helped your fatigue?
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    What does Dr Chia say about your Chlamydia pneumoniae results?
     
  10. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I think your intuition is spot on! I have the same view. It's my dysbiosis and gut issues that are causing my immune system dysfunction.

    This is the view of another leading ME/CFS researcher, Robert Naviaux, on high viral titers in ME/CFS. He is also a virologist-

    LINK

    The elemental diet is suppose be great for SIBO. It makes sense to me that it worked so well for you, I haven't tried it.

    Treating my gut has helped my fatigue more than anything else. The thing that has helped my fatigue the most after that would be coq10 I think, which supports mitochondrial function.

    Jim
     
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Apparently Dr Robert Naviaux is not aware of the non-cytolytic enterovirus infections found in the tissues of ME/CFS patients with high viral titers to enterovirus.

    In your quote, Naviaux says "supertiters of antibodies do not mean new or reactivated viral replication".

    Well, that statement may be true, but non-cytolytic enterovirus is neither a new nor a reactivated viral infection. It's something different to either of these. Non-cytolytic enterovirus is an unusual form of the virus that lives inside human cells.


    Naviaux is also not correct when he says here that:
    It's true that enteroviruses like coxsackievirus B and echovirus cannot establish a latent infection; but enterovirus can establish a chronic infection, in the form of a chronic non-cytolytic infection.

    Not all virologists know about non-cytolytic enterovirus, because this form of the virus was only discovered in the last 20 years, mainly by some excellent work at the University of Nebraska, by Profs Steve Tracy and Nora Chapman. But many virologists are not up to date with this enterovirus research; and it seems Dr Naviaux does not know about non-cytolytic viruses. I might write to him and provide some links to this non-cytolytic enterovirus research.

    You will not find much chronic enterovirus in the blood in ME/CFS; it's mostly found in the tissues, such as muscle tissues and digestive tract tissues. That's why in ME/CFS, blood PCR for enterovirus is often negative. But numerous British studies have found chronic enterovirus in the tissues (not blood) in ME/CFS.


    I did try to explain about non-cytolytic enterovirus infection to you before. You might like to read a bit about the role of non-cytolytic enterovirus in ME/CFS, because the statements you are quoting from Naviaux about enterovirus are not correct. I do like Naviaux's ideas about the cell danger response; but he does not appear to know about this newly discovered non-cytolytic form of enterovirus.

    An introduction to non-cytolytic enterovirus is found in this thread.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018 at 12:04 PM
  12. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    @Hip

    I think it comes down to which view one wants to accept as true. My feeling is that the non-cytolytic enterovirus theory is fringe science in relationship to CFS.

    Where Naviaux's view, that the immune system dysfunction in CFS is causing high viral titers, makes a lot of sense to me. The immune system dysfunction in CFS, seems fairly well established to me.

    It makes sense to me that it is the immune system dysfunction causing the high viral titers in CFS. Because so many people with CFS have high viral titers to so many different viruses.

    What else would cause high viral titers to so many different viruses, other than a dysfunctional immune system?

    The best way I can make sense of that, is by the immune system dysfunction Naviaux describes.

    Jim
     
  13. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    I agree but how do you balance and strengthen your immune system?
     
  14. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    Thanks for the info. I have read a lot on here about GcMAF
    I don’t have an appointment with him until October and can’t reach him until then. It seems like my IGG is low which points to not doing anything too aggressive at this time. Sometimes going after things can make me worse. What is GcMaf? Is it effective at fighting infections?
     
  15. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    To me it makes sense to treat the root cause of what's causing the immune system dysfunction. Which Chris Armstrong believes is the gut and I do as well.

    So treating the bacterial overgrowth in the gut and allowing the gut to heal seems like the best way to allow the immune system to re-balance and strengthen itself.

    Does that make sense?

    Jim
     
  16. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    Yes it does. My doctor actually wrote a prescription for Rifaximin. I’m tempted to get it and try it out. I hear good things. What are your thoughts?
     
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  17. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I'm glad you mentioned that. It was 2 courses of Rifaximin that allowed me to be able to tolerate high enough doses of herbs to help kill off the bacterial overgrowth in my gut.

    Before I took the Rifaximin, even very small doses of herbs, like oil of oregano or neem, made me very sick from the bacteria they were killing off.

    After I took the Rifaximin, I was able to go up on the doses of herbs I was taking fairly quickly, with MUCH less bacterial die-off symptoms.

    The really cool thing about Rifaximin, is that it only works in the small intestine, not in the colon and it's not absorbed into the bloodstream either. So side effects like C. diff are very rare.

    If you do try it, I would encourage you to go on a low carb diet first. Carbs feed the overgrowth of bacteria. So the low carb diet would work hand in hand with the Rifaximin.
     
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  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Everyone has their own views, but it is factually incorrect to say that coxsackievirus B cannot establish a chronic infection, as was stated in the Naviaux quote.

    It's also misleading to imply, as your other Naviaux quote did, that the only type of infections that can create an antibody response are new or reactivated infections. These are not the sum total of infections that viruses can create. As I pointed out, you can have non-cytolytic enteroviruses infection. And there are also abortive infections as well.

    There is nothing wrong with arguing against the viral view of ME/CFS, if that's the opinion someone holds. Good science is based on such for and against debates.

    But whatever your opinion, it's still important to ensure that the statements you make to support your argument are factually correct. If you are supporting your argument with factually incorrect statements, then someone will usually pull you up for it.



    So many different viruses?

    It's only a pretty small set of viruses that ME/CFS patients usually have high titers too, namely coxsackievirus B, echovirus, EBV, HHV-6 and CMV. These are the big 5 of ME/CFS.

    You don't find ME/CFS patients with high titers to say rhinovirus, norovirus, adenovirus, influenzavirus, HHV-8, measles, mumps, rubella, poliovirus, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, hepatitis C, rotavirus, human papillomavirus virus, etc. These are all common viruses frequently found in the general population (we have antibodies to these either from natural past infection, or via childhood vaccinations).


    If in Naviaux's view immune dysfunction in ME/CFS is causing high viral titers, then you might expect these high titers to appear across the board, for all viruses that a patient has. But to the best of our knowledge, ME/CFS patients do not usually have high titers to rhinovirus, norovirus, adenovirus, and the others I listed.

    They only have high titers to the big 5, and sometimes to related herpesviruses like VZV and HSV-1 and 2.

    So if you are proposing that immune dysfunction causes the high titers, you would also have to explain of why it is only the same 5 viruses that manifest these high titers, and not all the many other viruses I listed.

    Would you have a good explanation for that?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018 at 3:36 PM
  19. Dallase1

    Dallase1

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    Ok. They prescribed Neomycin to take with it. Since I got so much relief for a few days from the elemental diet I’m thinking about just biting the bullet and trying the antibiotics followed by Berberine, Allicin, and BIO HPF per my doctor’s suggestion.
    Are you cured from CFS?
     
  20. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I trust Naviaux's view. He has decades of experience as a virologist, has worked with people with CFS and researched CFS extensively.

    I think he has good data to back up his view or he would not make such a statement.

    There could be many reasons. Off the top of my head- it could be the specific immune system dysfunction in CFS that causes those specific high viral titers also.

    As Naviaux has said- "Supertiters of IgG antibodies mean that the balancing T-cell and NK cell mediated immune activity is decreased."

     

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