1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
ME/CFS and Beating the Clock
For Jody Smith, the ticking of a clock was enough at one time to chase her back to her bed. But with the passage of time, she has been able to reclaim her living room ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

virology.ws - XMRV contamination now more likely

Discussion in 'Media, Interviews, Blogs, Talks, Events about XMRV' started by guest, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. guest

    guest Guest

    Messages:
    320
    Likes:
    5
    http://www.virology.ws/2011/03/02/authenticity-of-xmrv-integration-sites/#comments

    These observations do not directly impugn the veracity of the other 12 XMRV integration sites identified in prostate tumor DNA. However, when DNA contamination occurs it is often ubiquitous. Hence the authors write:

    Whilst it is conceivable that the other 12 integration sites apparently derived from prostatic tumor tissues are genuine patient-derived sequences, we suspect that some or all of them may also be the result of contamination with DNA from experimentally infected DU145 cells.

    This possibility can and must be addressed experimentally.
  2. LJS

    LJS Insert Witty Comment Here

    Messages:
    207
    Likes:
    7
    East Coast, USA
    I am happy to see we are getting closer to getting an answer if XMRV is a real human pathogen no matter if the news is considered negative, it helps piece the puzzle together.
  3. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,925
    Likes:
    73
    Switzerland/Spain (Valencia)
    Let's wait until we hear the "defendants". They are not some beginners, i'm sure they will have something to say. Before that, i don't feel like i'm able to know what to make of this.

    If the contamination hypothesis really were to turn out to be correct, then i find it very hard to imagine how all of this could have happened. How can people like Ruscetti, Mikovits, Alter, Lo and others have contamination in their samples and not find out about it for such a long time. And have an antibody assay that would somehow produce so many false positives. I find it very hard to imagine how this could have happened without it having been done deliberately, which i absolutely don't think was the case. So it just doesn't seem very plausible to me. On the other hand the evidence against XMRV can't be dismissed either. So it's really high time for some reactions.
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,067
    Likes:
    4,282
    australia (brisbane)
    What about the different immune abnormalities that WPI are finding in xmrv+ as well as other cfsers, this isnt explained by contamination theory.

    cheers!!!
  5. LJS

    LJS Insert Witty Comment Here

    Messages:
    207
    Likes:
    7
    East Coast, USA
    Most if not all CFS patients have immune adnormalities, the cause of these adnormalities has not been found so there is not really any data to say they are caused by XMRV.
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,067
    Likes:
    4,282
    australia (brisbane)
    I know but its still helps with those bozzos who think its psychological and also make them look further into it or else prozac will be the main treatment with CBT again. All of us with cfs know theres something infectious going on in us or some type of immuno defiency.

    cheers!!!
  7. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,072
    Likes:
    1,573
    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    as said there's huge vested interest in making this (XMRV <--> ME/CFS) go away

    so you'll get a LOT more studies being green lighted or backed that will tend ot be negative rather than positive (not saying the researchers are necessarily factually wrong or have ill intentions...but those who have very long strings ot pull and deep purses can easily manipulate things in very crafty ways merely by "suggesting" who gets funding etc)

    AND

    in science, it works by DISPROVING things, so you'll always get lets of "nay" work until hm, how would you put it...you work out the better routes to the facts, by figuring out what is wrong way to go about it.
    ie sorting out what may cause too many negatives because of a peculiarity of the item you research that will only be uncovered by further research.
    Because "science" does not know everything, not even remotely close.
    Takes years of hard bloody work to chip chip chip away at such subjects.
    And unlike HIV, which had terrible bigotry but the sheer death toll broke through that in the end, we sitll have this huge vested interest against us.

    BUT

    worst of all, no one has done exact REPLICATION WORK of the WPI!! (that I know of) Argggggggggh!!!
    QED, when did that fly out the damn window, eh? :/

    So alas it will take time.
  8. LJS

    LJS Insert Witty Comment Here

    Messages:
    207
    Likes:
    7
    East Coast, USA
    Who does it benefit for the XMRV CFS connection to go away??? This is not some conspiracy to get rid of XMRV it is just science working the problem. The pharmaceuticals stand to make a ton of money off it, the testing companies will make money. The government stands to gain from less people off social security disability and more working people generating tax revenue. The only people that may lose out is the insurance companies and there is no way they are some how influencing every one of these studies. This studies are finding legitimate problems with the CFS and prostate cancer XMRV papers..
  9. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,218
    Likes:
    1,568
    Australia
    I agree. But I can't say I'm confident about it.

    The weird VipDX results don't fill me with that much confidence either. (eg positive on antibodies but not culture and vice versa!?!)
  10. Deatheye

    Deatheye Senior Member

    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    18
    Diddn't more then one person say that it seems like worser cases are antibodies negative cause theyr immunsystems seems to fail to produce antibodys against it anymore?
  11. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

    Messages:
    155
    Likes:
    3
    Rochester, New York
    worst of all, no one has done exact REPLICATION WORK of the WPI!! (that I know of) Argggggggggh!!!
    QED, when did that fly out the damn window, eh? :/

    So alas it will take time.[/QUOTE]

    I agree 100%, WPI's testing is different than how viruses have been found in the past. Why hasn't anyone repeated their process exactly? It's no different than WPI finding the virus with an MRI, but all follow up studies just took x-rays!?!? Of course you won't get the same results. We also can't exclude the cohort problems of some of these zero/zero studies.

    Cort have you heard of any reason why someone hasn't repeated WPI process and samples exactly?
  12. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes:
    401
    Upstate SC, USA
    I agree 100%, WPI's testing is different than how viruses have been found in the past. Why hasn't anyone repeated their process exactly? It's no different than WPI finding the virus with an MRI, but all follow up studies just took x-rays!?!? Of course you won't get the same results. We also can't exclude the cohort problems of some of these zero/zero studies.

    Cort have you heard of any reason why someone hasn't repeated WPI process and samples exactly?[/QUOTE]

    It almost appears as if their "ego" is preventing this. Its as if they are thinking well if they can find it, I can find it my way cause I'm smarter than they are. I certainly understand researchers trying it different ways, but at least repeat what was originally done, Hell, their PCR machine might have a glitch in it. Who knows???!!
  13. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,218
    Likes:
    1,568
    Australia
    Unless you have demonstratable immunodeficiency, that argument doesn't really make much sense.
  14. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,806
    Likes:
    10,332
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Hi, while not published, in one recent video Judy Mikovits stated that one of the problems is that most of the antibody is bound up with XMRV in some patients, which means that you are no longer looking for the antibody but antibody-XMRV complexes. This may mean that searching for antibodies will fail. Bye, Alex
  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,806
    Likes:
    10,332
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Hi Snow Leopard, again unpublished research from the WPI shows an assortment of immunodeficiency issues. Some of those have been shown also by other groups. Expect many publications on this in the next several years. One of the WPI claimed deficiencies is a severe deficit of mature B cells. These are the ones that make antibodies. Bye, Alex
  16. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,072
    Likes:
    1,573
    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    ah, sorry but research even honest research, CAN be warped as I've said before, statiscally (by altering funding/support to favour studies you believe will be negative) and in other ways

    http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Wesselys_Way.htm

  17. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,132
    Likes:
    175
    USA.Earth
    The critical part of the WPI process HAS been precisely replicated, by every one of the negative studies, that is calibration of the PCR to VP62. As to why they don't replicate the actual probe/master mix chemistry, that is not considered to be required to validate a finding. What counts is whether you can calibrate.

    Another probable reason for lack of precise replication is intellectual property rights. More than likely WPI will not give out all the details to anyone but a close confederate lab. I have not heard WPI complaining about lack of precise replication recently (although I believe Mikovits did say something like that originally), that seems to now be coming mostly from CFS patients who are not PCR experts. In fact, Mikovits gave several reasons she believed there were differences between the studies in her 1/17/11 presentation, and lack of precise replication was not one of them. Rather, she said something to the effect that her test design picks up a wider range of strains, which is not supported by any data I can find (still looking for that).
  18. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    431
    Raleigh, NC
    I actually think the PCR portion of the paper has been replicated and the antibody portion has as well. The antibody portion shouldn't have been difficult - they simply looked for an MLV protein that they believed was present in CFS. Ditto with the PCR - they simply looked for a few sequences.

    Culturing is the one that has not been replicated, and it seems for a couple of reasons; one is, apparently, that its not done that much anymore. Its quite time consuming and from I read somewhere it's more complex...and PCR has taken over the field; it was pointed out to me that people are sentenced to death based on PCR evidence. I think the prevailing view is that PCR and antibodies are the two keys to diagnosis.

    Culturing does involve PCR - its just that most PCR guys don't think you need to culture - ie prompt the virus to replicate first - in order to find it. They think they should be able to find anything that's in those blood samples. One study did culture but not for as long as the WPI does. Nobody has come close to culturing for 42 days.

    I think culturing will take place in the BWG tests.

    The WPI has two problems right now....Not only are most other researhers not able to find the virus but the CROI conference and some other findings suggest that even if they do - the research world is just going to think its a contaminant that somehow got in their blood samples.

    That's why they need to show that it's integrated into human DNA - that would apparently indicate that it has infected human cells. We've heard that Silverman is working on that and I would imagine that Dr. Mikovits and Dr. Ruscetti are as well.

    The BWG test will be the one, though...if they can pick out the positives from the negatives that means they really know how to find XMRV and no one else does. It would also suggest that XMRV is not a contaminant - because it would be found preferentially in CFS patients.
  19. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,193
    Likes:
    14
    Ugh. :(
    I just feel, intuitively, that xmrv must be it. It just makes perfect sense. It explains why I've been Having weird symptoms since birth, having chronic shingles as a small kid, why my mother is Ill why my father died of cancer, why her mother had lupus, why her father died from a fungal infection etc etc. It must be a retrovirus.
  20. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,301
    Likes:
    1,693
    London
    Kurt,

    Do you have any evidence to support this? i.e. can you prove that the WPI or anyone else consider this an adequate replication. It comes across as your opinion that way you wrote it and I am just wondering if it shared by any of the researchers and if so, whom.

    (The critical part of the WPI process HAS been precisely replicated, by every one of the negative studies, that is calibration of the PCR to VP62. As to why they don't replicate the actual probe/master mix chemistry, that is not considered to be required to validate a finding. What counts is whether you can calibrate)

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page