The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Viral Reinfection: Can You Catch The Same Persistent Virus Twice — Apparently Yes

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Hip, Dec 6, 2015.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I always assumed that once you catch a persistent virus (the sort that afterwards remains latent in your body indefinitely, like herpes family viruses), and once you develop an antibody response to it, you will not be able to contract that same virus again, because your antibodies will protect you from catching it twice.

    Well, it turns out that for cytomegalovirus, this is not true: even if you have cytomegalovirus in your body already (having acquired this virus earlier in life), and have antibodies that keep it under control, you can still catch a different strain of cytomegalovirus, and this different strain can cause an acute infection just like the original acute infection you may have experienced when you first caught cytomegalovirus. See this paper:

    Human cytomegalovirus reinfection is associated with intrauterine transmission in a highly cytomegalovirus-immune maternal population



    It also seems that individuals may be infected with multiple strains of Epstein-Barr virus (EBV):

    This small study discovered that the same healthy individual can have latent infections with up to 5 different EBV genotypes. So that indicates you can catch more than one strain of EBV (but as to whether each time you catch a new strain of EBV you can experience the symptoms of acute infection again, I can't find any info on; though apparently getting EBV-induced mononucleosis more than once has never been observed).

    And intriguingly, this study, which also observed multiple strains of EBV infection in healthy people, found that each strain of EBV infection tended to be compartmentalized, ie localized to specific locations in the body, although the strains found in any specific location of the body can change over time.



    HHV-6 of course has two well-known variants: HHV-6B, the more common variant found in almost 100% of the population; and HHV-6A, the rarer and more neurotropic variant, observed at higher prevalences in ME/CFS and in multiple sclerosis. Refs: 1 2

    However, HHV-6A and HHV-6B are sufficiently different from each other so as to be considered distinct viruses, rather than different strains of the same virus. And indeed, recently the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses finally classified HHV-6A and HHV-6B as separate viruses. Ref: 1

    But presumably for a virus like HHV-6B, there will be multiple strains of HHV-6B; and likewise, there may be multiple strains of HHV-6A.



    From the ME/CFS perspective, it should be borne in mind that some strains of the same virus can be more pathogenic than others. For example, multiple sclerosis has long been linked to EBV, but a recent study found that MS is strongly associated with certain genetic variants of EBV (this study actually provides a strong indication that EBV plays a causal role in MS, because it would be difficult to explain its observations otherwise).

    So conceivably ME/CFS might also be associated with specific pathogenic strains of a virus like EBV, HHV-6A, HHV-6B or cytomegalovirus, and perhaps you only come down with ME/CFS once you catch a pathogenic strain.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
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  2. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Thanks @Hip - most depressing to know :)
     
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  3. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Antibody levels from an earlier attack decrease over time.

    It takes at least 2 weeks and more likely 3 weeks for new antibodies to kick in enough.
     
  4. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    This also seems to be the case with some bacterial infections, Lyme for instance.
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, in the months and years that immediately follow an acute infection perhaps, but I imagine that antibody titers will never disappear, because they are necessary for preventing the latent infection from reactivating. Things might be different for non-persistent viruses like rhinoviruses, which do not remain in the body, and where possibly you may lose antibody immunity after a decade or so.

    I wonder if different strains of EBV, HHV-6 or cytomegalovirus require a different antibody response, so that the antibodies made for the original strain will have no effect against any subsequent strains you may catch.
     
  6. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    There might be crossreaction but that will not be enough to prevent multiplying and with different strains new antibodies must start from zero.
     
  7. Mark37

    Mark37

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    I have ebv and cmv and no doctor I've met believes either virus triggered my crash. Where can one be tested for multiple strains, determine pathogenic level of a particular strain, reactivation please? I live in Australia.
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    This can only really be achieved using methods like high-throughput sequencing (aka: next-generation sequencing), which detects and identifies microbes by their genetic fingerprints.

    High-throughput sequencing services are still usually only found in research labs. I am not aware of any viral high-throughput sequencing service that is commercially available.

    Even if you could find a lab willing to perform high-throughput sequencing, the research has not been done to determine which particular strains of EBV, cytomegalovirus or enterovirus are associated with ME/CFS (if indeed there are particular strains linked to ME/CFS).

    I wish someone would get down to doing this research.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
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  9. Mark37

    Mark37

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    Thanks @Hip
    Are we correct to assume that a private /next generation lab produced the results for the first study you provided?

    "All women were cytomegalovirus seroimmune at first prenatal visit. Reactivity for 2 cytomegalovirus strains was found in 14 of 40 study mothers and in 17 of 109 control mothers at first prenatal visit (P = .009). Seven of 40 (17.5%) study women and 5 of 109 (4.6%) controls (P = .002) acquired antibodies reactive with new cytomegalovirus strains during pregnancy. Evidence of infection with more than 1 strain of cytomegalovirus before or during current pregnancy occurred in 21 of 40 study mothers and 22 of 109 controls (P < .0001).

    Great work has been done with HPV in identifying the pathogenic and cancerous strains...and a vaccine. I suspect we'll discover that a few strains of ebv cmv etc, like hpv, don't really subside and cause ongoing symptoms, with varying levels of severity.
     
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  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It's quite possible, but I don't know that much about how viral strains/subtypes are identified.

    But even if viral subtypes do play a role in ME/CFS, I think it is more than just the virus and its subtype which determines whether you get ME/CFS from the virus or not.

    When I caught the virus that triggered my ME/CFS, I observed that it spread to more than 30 members of my friends and family. Although this nasty virus caused physical and mental symptoms in everyone who caught it, only I developed ME/CFS.

    Interestingly enough, just prior to catching this virus, I had a seriously nasty chronic exposure to organophosphate pesticides, which some studies have shown increase the risk of developing ME/CFS by fourfold. So it may have been the combination of organophosphates + virus which triggered my ME/CFS.
     
  11. Mark37

    Mark37

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    Hip, I'm sorry to hear what happened to you and have read some of your highly beneficial and very well researched posts.

    I too acquired a particularly nasty virus/bug and l believe, for what ever reason haven't developed sufficient immunity to control it.

    I've read cases where people who've had various immune blows in close succession being a trigger for cfs.

    I had a range of chronic symptoms mental and physical, definitely triggered by an unknown pathogen prior to crashing, rendering me unable to work fulltime. Joints, muscles, ibs, sore throat, muscle twitching, insomnia, prostatitis, mental cognition, exhaustion, basic comprehension. The high anxiety l attribute directly to the infection itself.

    Fortunately my partner never developed ongoing symptoms, however our son has the muscle twitching which does wake him.

    There is no history of this on either sides of our families. I'm aware some pathogens can be cleared, yet in doing so the gut/organs are altered creating ongoing problems.

    However, I can only attribute my situation to an ongoing pathogen, as recently l have improved with mega-high dose vit C, in combination with an existing protocol of trial and error supplements and diet that's taken half a decade to refine.

    Other than cmv and ebv in blood work and strep in a stool test l have little to go by.

    Drs have told me these viruses/ bugs can't cause what l have. Well I'm not so sure. They also told me my future offspring would be fine and not to worry.

    I can only assume an ongoing highly pathogenic strain placing a large burden on and already compromised immune system.
     
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  12. roller

    roller wiggle jiggle

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    have you ever wondered, if exposure to pesticides could just kill a bunch of your (legged) parasites, which may then trigger the virus release - either due to the threat or their mass death?
    too much for the immune system to handle - as they are all inside already.
    its in this case not an infection on the "common way" - respiration, skin contact, body fluids...

    so, pesticides are "good" (kill arthropod-like-parasaites, but they may trigger viruses and bacterias...?
     
  13. roller

    roller wiggle jiggle

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    todays DM news

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_herpesvirus_6
     
  14. roller

    roller wiggle jiggle

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    meds
    cidofovir - good
    foscarnet -- excellent
    Brincidofovir -- excellent
    ganciclovir, valganciclovir --- waste of money
    artesunate (Malartin, Artesor) --- excellent

    herbs
    ahcc
    lomatium
    OLE olive leaf extrat
    takuna by nutramedix
     
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  15. Persimmon

    Persimmon Senior Member

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    Hip, thanks for yet another interesting thread.

    Polio infection has a range of impacts. The literature of pre-vaccines outbreaks documented a standard breakdown as follows:
    - approx 90% of those infected were asymptomatic;
    - approx 8-9% experienced it much like a cold or mild/moderate flu;
    - approx 1-2% additionally developed neurological symptoms.

    It was only some of the neuro' subset that developed paralysis. Of these, some developed extensive paralysis and some limited areas of paralysis. Of those paralysed, some recovered fully from their paralysis and some partially. It was only a small proportion of those infected who were permanently and extensively paralysed.

    Nobody has adequately explained why polio infection affected some people more severely than others.

    The same set of issues apply to other viruses.

    The point of this example is that viral infection is not necessarily insufficient to explain the pattern you described - a virus can make a group of 30+ people sick, yet leave only one with profound, lasting symptoms.
     
  16. Horizon

    Horizon Senior Member

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    I've had Shingles twice. I have heard of people who got sick from a tick bite and sick again. Possible double lymies.
     
  17. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    That is from the same initial VZV infection reactivating, and it can do this more than once.

    I don't think our adaptive immunity works as well against bacterial infections but I could be wrong.
     
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  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Sorry, I missed this post that you made, @Mark37. Have you come across the Chinese "Unknown Virus"? This causes symptoms such as muscle twitching, plus all the others you mention.

    For your infection-induced anxiety symptoms: I had severe virally-induced anxiety, but managed to eliminate it using these supplements: Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
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  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Agreed, the same virus can produce an enormous range of responses in different people, from an asymptomatic response to death.

    I did find this comment of interest:


    A most intriguing thing about the effect of my suspected coxsackievirus B infection on the 30+ people who caught it is that it seemed to induce some characteristic ME/CFS symptoms in many people, such as the tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon where you temporarily forget common words or names.
     
  20. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Antibodies tend to have highest binding affinity to one specific strain. Your antibodies will confer slightly higher resistance to new strains, but that only alters the odds. Even if you have maximum resistance, say to the same strain, you still might catch it again. Its just much less likely. If full resistance due to prior exposure were possible it would prevent viral reactivation too, and cold sores and shingles would never occur.
     

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