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vasoconstriction/vasodilation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by lizw118, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    I am not sure where to post this, but I am wondering if any of the methylation issues effect vasoconstiction/dilation issues. I feel much better on any type of vasoconstrictor, like psuedoephedrine, etc, and I wonder sometimes if my blood vessels are always dilated or have inflammation. Does this protocol effect such issues? Is this a nervous system thing?
    Liz
  2. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Liz

    I am also very sensitive to vasodilators, they make me feel much worse and also can give me severe migraines. I have found out that niacin is a vasodilator but niacinamide isn't but is supposed to give the same results. I don't know if there is any niacin in Rich's protocol but there is in the B Right that originally Fredd recommended.

    I also need 1/2 tab Fludrocortisone because of severe POTS and this is a vasoconstrictor and very beneficial. I think many herbs are vasodilators but I don't think these would come into any methylation protocol.

    Pam
  3. lucy

    lucy Senior Member

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    I too dislike to be vasodilated, I feel totally exhausted, the skin feels hot. I also hate hot environments. I consider discussing vasodilation issue important because the endothelial cells release vasodilation chemistry upon movement, which would be then interesting direction to think due to the PEM symptom in CFS.
    I have no experience in methylation.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Liz,

    I wonder sometimes if my blood vessels ... have inflammation.
    Does this protocol effect such issues? Is this a nervous system thing?


    The active b12 protocol certainly affects these issues, all of them. The endothelium, including blood vessels, can become inflamed from mb12 and Metafolin deficiencies. High homocysteine, characteristic of low mb12 and/or low Metafolin and/or low P-5-P causes endothelial damage and failure. There may also be direct problems from failure to reproduce the cells. Also, the part of the nervous system controlling constriction or dilation can also be damaged by lack of mb12 and lack of Metafolin. The endothelium was a slow healer for me but maybe because I didn't add Metafolin until 4 years ago. Even with the intermittent paradoxical folate deficiency I have had substantial healing after starting the Metafolin.
  5. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks for your responses, everyone. I am comforted to know that I am not the only one dealing with these issues. I cannot tolerate heat well, either, and I get sinus headaches.
    I will have to look on my pure encapsulations B6 formula to see how much niacin, if any, is present.
    Freddd, how long do you think it takes to heal the endothelium? Does it heal? How could you tell when you healed in that way? My homocysteine levels were actually lowish once when I tested them, but my methymalonate and other stuff shows I have B12 deficiency for sure. I also have very low riboflavin, for whatever that is worth.
    I have often thought that the reason I find estriol cream so beneficial is because it does something to the endothelium, which helps M.S. patients. I think that is definitely part of my problem.
    Pam, I am also taking fludrocortisone 1/2 tab per day, but have sadly not found it to be as potent of a vasoconstrictor as other stuff, like pseudoephedrine. It does help me not have to get up to go to the bathroom during the night, though. I don't want to take any more than I am already because I fear it will cause me to gain weight.
    Liz
  6. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    I have the exact opposite problem, I over constrict. I have an over sympathic response to standing, so I continue to constrict and my blood pressure and HR continues to rise while I stand. I wonder if the protocol will make my problem worse? I've been on it three weeks now and don't see or feel any changes yet, I started on the full doses of everything.

    I had asked a week ago if anyone with a confirmed mito diagnoses had tried the protocol and didn't get any responses back. Maybe a better question is are there any others that have had a muscle biopsy for a mitochondrial diagnosis?
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Todd,

    I never had a muscle biopsy. While I was spending $10,000/year out of pocket looking for answers I wasn't insured and so a lot of things were not done. And as it turns out, any answers they might have found in such a test would never have lead them the the right answer in any case, the one that corrected the problems. It's bizarrely funny in a way, that the only answer that could fix the problem isn't even on the menu as a possible correct answer under any conditions.
  8. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Just about any vasoconstrictor is likely going to make you feel better, at least temporarily. It stimulates the sympathetic nervous system and increases catecholamine and cortisol output and stimulates ATP production. Of course there is a price to be paid for this because these chemical reactions place demands glutathione--in a number of different ways. If Rich's hypothesis is valid your glutathione is already depressed so you get free radical damage (perhaps more inflammatatory pain), mito damage, etc. At least that is my understanding. I used exercise and adderall for years to create this effect; it catches up to you.
  9. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Rich do you know of any other mito patients that have tried your protocol? I can't be the first to try.
  10. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Vegas
    That is depressing, but perhaps you are right. I take straterra for depression/cfs and hydrocortisone for adrenal fatigue. The cortisol doesn't make me feel that much better but the norepinephrine does. It is probably as you say, the sympathetic nervous system stimulation. Is there any way to stimulate that without it costing our bodies?
    Thanks
    Liz
  11. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    There are no quick fixes

    Hormones and neurotransmitter stimulation is not the answer. In fact these things actually have something in common--they dramatically increase methionine synthase activity. Problem is, if you believe Rich and the research of others, methionine synthase activity is impaired You have to get to the root of the problem. What inhibits methionine synthase activity is neurotoxins and oxidative stress. This would include lead, mercury/thimerosol, alcohol, excessive energy output, viruses, chronic infections, xenobiotics. Personally, I've had success with radical dietary changes and gut modification followed by pursuing a combination of methylation protocols espoused by Rich and Freddd. I have nearly fixed my gastrointestinal issues and it eventually became clear that these played a very significant causal role in the brain fog. The immune response created by the intestinal dybiosis was also strongly associated with the fatigue. I believe my improvement was in large part created by the crap in my body (mostly anaerobic bacteria & yeast) that I eliminated, and I think everyone who has any digestive issues should pursue the diet and gut modification changes, and most will benefit from methylation support, which has a synergistic effect. Adding methyl donors should be done cautiously and slowly; it has proven to be quite challenging at times.

    In short, you have to take all the clues you have, and go after what you know exists as a problem, but I think getting the body to ramp up production of glutathione provides many benefits. An endogenous solution is always going to be more effective than an exogeonous solution.
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, lizw118.

    PWCs tend to have low total blood volume because of "mild" diabetes insipidus (not to be confused with diabetes mellitus). If you have low total blood volume, constricting the peripheral blood vessels might help by making it possbile to deliver more blood flow to the brain.

    If my hypothesis is valid, treating to lift the partial methylation cycle block, which also raises glutathione (as verified by lab testing) will ultimately correct the diabetes insipidus and raise the total blood volume.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  13. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich!
    How long does it take, usually, to correct the d.i.?
    Liz
  14. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I agree with Vegas in principle. In practice, I had to stop methylation support, because it was causing intolerable inflammation, aggravating an underlying blood sugar issue & the progress was painstakingly slow.

    I have decided to go after the bugs, & knock them down as far as I can, before returning to methylation.

    Of course, I have been long term ill for longer than a decade so I guess I have a fairly high pathogen/toxin load.

    Just my 2 cents.
  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Yes, I apologize if I come across as if I have the answer because obviously these situations are so individualistic, and such sweeping generalizations are probably a bit ignorant. You certainly can't force the methylation supps on a body that can't handle it, although some times you "hold your breath" and go for it and find something good happens.

    I beat down those nasty GI bugs for nearly 18 months before I started methylation supps. No rX antibiotics. Natural antibiotic substances, probiotics, glutamine, enzymes, HCL, and a diet very similar to what KDM advocates. Although the diet was was purely coincidental as I essentially settled on a diet based upon response. The first time I ever tried probiotics I was feverish, lots of kidney & prostate pain, and very ill for about 3 days. I clearly have or had an infection that had translocated through that leaky gut. One thing that I think is interesting is that I actually had these subclinical infections for years, the GI stuff, prostate, etc., long before I ever became very ill. Apparently you can tick along with all sorts of infections until you reach a tipping point and then when the cortisol crashes (presumably when the GSH tanks) you just realize how poor your underlying health really is. Doing this protocol and having days where my temp soars and all my symptoms improve is quite extraordinary. Then there are those down days where you want to give up because you thought you had passed that earlier phase.

    Do you get any GI response from probiotics or any sort of antibiotic--natural or otherwise? More and more, I keep coming back to the same conclusion: The things that have brought me better health have required me to endure some pretty harsh side effects first.

    Speaking of hypoglycemia, I can certainly relate. I literally had to eat every 15-30 minutes. Chromium Polynicotinate is the best supplement for this, and obviously you need to go low glycemic, but the biggest part of this is the increased sympathetic tone. I found that this is where the methylation supplements provided all kinds of help. It has and continues to rebalance my ANS. Perhaps you should keep supplementing with very modest amounts of B12 and methylfolate while you work on the bugs.
  16. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I also have gut issues that I am trying to work on.
    All I want to do is eat sugar. Seriously, I constantly crave it, and I have to abstain from it to fix the gut stuff. It is really really hard for me.
    A couple of other questions:
    1) Is there anything that causes vasoconstriction that does not stimulate the nervous system and/or does not cause glutathione levels to drop? Or is vasoconstriction always something that happens through the sympathetic nervous system somehow?

    2) Is it possible to be on antidepressants yet still get better with methylation treatments?

    Thanks
    Liz
  17. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Vegas, yr point was well made. I was just trying to give my perspective.. I really hate to give up the meth supps. I esp. sleep better on sam-e. I wasn't posting just to post.. it just seems to me that, as with every txt, there are pros & cons. I know some ppl are doing well.. Kurt is an example. But from what I can make out, Kurt has done a lot of bug killing & other treatments.
    People just need to be aware that increased inflammation might be one of the problems folks run into.
    Everything is a trade-off. I get that.
    I'm getting a lot of symptomatic relief on L Lysine & diflucan right now.
    I can't really answer yr question about my gut. It's a mess & I haven't taken much stuff for it. I was sick for days though when I did the biofilm protocol.

    Edited to add: I seem to be able to tolerate a little bit of supplementation (b12+folapro) now that I am taking LLysine ...so maybe there are tweaks that can be done to get past the roadblocks.
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I think vasodilation and constriction in the head/brain is something that can alternatively happen, its a matter of working out which symptoms belong to vasoconstriction or dilation. I know i had a deep seated headache that wasnt shifting and lasted a week and i used a vasodilator and within minitues this improved/ brain fog etc too. But tried it a few tmes since with no real positive effect. so i think u have to be able to read for yourself whats going on. Certain headaches and brain fog are caused by vasodilation or constriction. Its all a trial and error thing and your body will always try to compensate to what u try to do to it.

    cheers!!!
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Vegas,

    I want to say that my gut issues took the longest to heal outside the neurology. They were both hindered by continued folic acid usage and who knows what other issues.
  20. curecfs

    curecfs

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