The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Vascular Brain Fog & Nitric Oxide

Discussion in 'Cognition' started by ebethc, Jan 18, 2017.

  1. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I think my brain fog is at least somewhat caused by poor blood flow... I don't have POTS, but I'm starting to think that maybe I do have some subtle vascular problems that are causing big cognitive problems... I've ignored this part of CFS since I don't have POTS... Can anyone share info on "vascular dementia" or vascular brain fog?

    I took high doses of ornithine/arginine a few years ago and felt fantastic and super, super focused (unbelievably organized...and great burst of energy).. THEN I crashed hard.. one of the worst reactions... However, it did teach me that blood flow and inflammation were causing so bad symptoms... I'm trying arginine again BUT adding lysine this time... rookie mistake to leave the lysine out the first time around... No ornithine in the house, and I'm broke, so I'm working w what I have. do you really need ornithine w arginine and lysine? I know these 3 are often taken together, as well as those 3 plus glycine - which is also good for me but makes me sleepy.
     
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  2. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Interesting because arginine would feed EBV and other viruses, so the positive benefits were increased energy followed by a decrease from increased viral replication because of arginine? And Lysine would help stop that.

    Have you ever tried MSM?
     
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  3. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I haven't tried MSM... what is it?
     
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  4. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Arginine promotes some viruses but is antiviral against others, like enteroviruses which are implicated in CFS/ME. It also promotes release of nitric oxide which itself will kill many viruses. I had only positive experiences from supplementing with arginine, but unfortunately tolerance developed rather quickly for me.
     
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  5. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    What about ginkgo biloba? From the Mayo Clinic website:

     
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  6. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    did nothing for me... pycnogenol, on the other hand, did help. it releases n.o.
     
  7. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Basically organic sulfur. For some it works really well, for others not so much. However it increases oxygen supply the cells and helps with methylation.
     
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  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @ebethc I switched from ornithine-arginine-citrulline-lysine to malic acid. cheaper and worked at least as well. I used it in footbaths. I'm no longer needing supps for ammonia/sulfur issues, thankfully.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/new-inexpensive-cbs-ammonia-fix.31835/

    You might check these out. I've been using nasla insulin for about 3 months. I don't know whether it's done anything for my cognition, but it's definitely relieved the headachey feelings and sense of static in my head.

    http://www.lostfalco.com/intranasal-insulin/

    http://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/the-benefits-of-intranasal-insulin.4820/#post-23758
     
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  9. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @ahmo - intranasal insulin is next on my list! also, ibudilast and (to a lesser extent) galantamine.
     
  10. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I just started the intranasal insulin about a week ago. So far I do 2 sprays in the morning and it seems to be having a pretty nice effect, or maybe it's just a coincidence.
     
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  11. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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  12. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    does it help w brain fog & ADD? I have terrible brain fog... my most stubborn symptom.... I have just discovered vinpocetine, which increase blood flow and has been helpful for brain fog, but it's early, just like your INI experiment... I also just discovered inositol, and that's been interesting... helps w anxiety, but makes me REALLY thirsty, which is weird
     
  13. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Wow, @ebethc -- just what I was wondering about today. How goes the galantamine?
     
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  14. eljefe19

    eljefe19

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    And better yet where to score reasonably priced Galantamine. Other cerebral blood flow inducers would be great to list as well.
     
  15. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I haven't tried it yet.... Next up (in order): INI, ibudilast, then galantamine ... Lostfalco recommends galantamine + ibudilast, so I will probably try that combo

    http://www.lostfalco.com/the-brain-fog-two-step/

    I have just started vinpocetine, and can vouch for that! It's good for cerebral blood flow, which is (I believe) what makes galantamine effective, so good indication that galantamine & ibudilast would be good for me.. I also have been liking inositol lately for aches/pains, and somewhat helpful for cognition
     
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  16. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    Originally I had the same sort of problem and reactions as you. NO boosters like arginine and GPLC helped my brain fog and brain in general. Eventually the effect subsided, and I also learned arginine (on its own) is likely one of the most metabolically damaging ways to raise NO. I also found ways to exploit sunlight for awhile which based on the feeling and effect I'm convinced was mainly beneficial through its raising NO. There's a number of more effective NO boosters I never got around to trying.

    These days my brain doesn't respond at all or barely to NO boosters anymore, so I stopped chasing it. But the rest of my body still does.

    So this could be a long shot, but in the last year the single best new supplement I've tried has been oral+topical progesterone (liquid drops in MCT oil & vitamin E - usually 6-12mg in the evening, occasionally 30mg). The biggest reason is that it increases my peripheral blood flow significantly, like NO boosters do but for longer periods, often lasting overnight into the next day. (It'll increase your GABA too but that's not my thing)

    I don't know its full extent on the brain, but it does have NO modulating abilities there (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15857396 - reducing iNOS), and peripherally at least it activates eNOS (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25805192 - interestingly it's partly doing this through PI3K/Akt/Erk which is a hot topic in the other threads).

    In other words if I could still get brain relief from NO, progesterone would be the first thing I'd try again as an experiment.

    Did you try high-dose lysine on its own (since you have it)? It can have a potent effect on the brain, sometimes quite helpful I find, even though it's more likely to lower NO.
     
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  17. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Tunguska .. interesting.. no, I haven't tried high dose lysine.. I think taking lysine w N.O. increasing aminos (citrulline malate, etc) is probably best... Also, vinpocetine increases circulation which seems to help
     
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  18. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member

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    @ebethc ME causes hypoperfusion of the brain, which explains the brain fog. A SPECT scan done in the proper way can clearly show this. I had it done in december and was quite amazed at the results, which showed I had moderate to severe hypoperfusion in most parts of the brain. The part of the brains that regulates orthostatic tension was not affected in my case, which also explains why I don't have Pots or any form of orthostatic intolerance.
     
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  19. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Vinpo was great for me early on in the illness, for sure.

    This is part of why I take the herb Vitex agnus-castus. It's progesterogenic. It helps with my breathing issues.
     
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  20. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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    In his talk Dr Fluge :) mentioned that most ME patients suffer from some degree of endothelial dysfunction:
    Endothelial Functioning Substudy
    Our substudy of endothelial function (Bergen Notodden) in 72 patients will use flow-mediated dilation to test large blood vessel endothelial functioning. We will also test microvascular endothelial function in Bergin using skin laser-doppler measurements.

    [​IMG]
    Is a problem in the blood vessels triggering the sympathetic nervous system activation found in ME/CFS?

    We believe that endothelial function is important in ME/CFS. Even though many symptoms can be ascribed to the central nervous system we are not convinced that ME/CFS is primarily a central nervous system disorder. We believe the sympathetic nervous activation seen in ME/CFS may be (partly) secondary to an underlying (peripheral) pathology.

    It is important to get an understanding of which symptoms that are caused by the primary pathology, and those which may be ascribed to secondary (compensatory) mechanisms. We are working to elucidate whether endothelial dysfunction, and subsequent inadequate fine-tuned autoregulation of blood flow to meet the demands of tissues, may be an important feature of ME/CFS.

    A study from Dundee in 2011 showed endothelial dysfunction to be present in ME/CFS. Our pilot studies in a group of ME/CFS patients suggest it is as well.

    In the substudy to RituxME, we ask if we can reproduce the endothelial dysfunction in a larger cohort of ME/CFS patients? Is there a relation between endothelial dysfunction and disease severity? Is there a relation between endothelial function and a later clinical response (in the rituximab group)? In patients that improve after B-cell depletion therapy (Rituximab) is there a relation between improvement in self-reported symptoms or in physical activity levels, and changes in endothelial function?

    We have written a manuscript on our thoughts and hypotheses including the relation between immune response, endothelial function, and the possible effector system for symptom maintenance in ME/CFS. However, we still believe that we need more data to underpin out thoughts and have therefore not submitted the paper yet.

    [Dysfunction of the endothelial cells lining the blood vessels in the circulatory system has been a subject of interest in ME/CFS since MERUK’s pioneering efforts in the early 2,000’s. These cells – present everywhere from largest arteries to the small capillaries – control how dilated or narrowed the blood vessels are, affect inflammation, control blood clotting and more. Each of these factors have been implicated in ME/CFS at one time or the other. In 2012 Newton et al. reported both small and large blood vessel dysfunction was present in ME/CFS.
     

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