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"Vaccines Revealed" Documentary Series

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,431
Location
UK
In haste, but courts both in the US and Europe have accepted a link between MMR and autism.

I think the whistleblower's claim that the CDC also found that MMR was associated with autism in black male youngsters still stands. I haven't heard it has been discredited.
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
I'm not wildly anti-vaccine, but I'm greatly troubled when anyone feels the need to overstate what is known...as the pro-vaccine crowd is quick to do given any opportunity. If the truth is on your side, there is no need to overstate it and defend it like religion...

Ironically, research in science communication suggests that simply repeating the "facts" (or worse, ridiculing those who have alternative beliefs) does not lead to any change in beliefs. Virtually all of these people fail to listen and understand why people have opposing views. If they did so, then they might have a hope of changing such beliefs.

Ian Lipkin (and Mady Hornig) are open minded when it comes to this stuff, they follow the science. I wouldn't hold back on any donations due to him stating that the MMR vaccine doesn't cause autism.
 
Messages
13,774
In haste, but courts both in the US and Europe have accepted a link between MMR and autism.

I think the whistleblower's claim that the CDC also found that MMR was associated with autism in black male youngsters still stands. I haven't heard it has been discredited.

I've not looked in any detail at this and only know what was said at the time: that this was not a pre-specified analysis and that with a large data set and so many potential sub-groups one could always find chance associations.

I've seen it used as an example of the problem Andrew Gelman wrote about here: http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/2014/6/the-statistical-crisis-in-science/1

Actually, I just googled and it looks like Rebecca Goldin, who did the good take down of PACE's recovery criteria, also wrote about this here: http://www.stats.org/african-american-boys-and-autism/
 
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geraldt52

Senior Member
Messages
602
Ironically, research in science communication suggests that simply repeating the "facts" (or worse, ridiculing those who have alternative beliefs) does not lead to any change in beliefs. Virtually all of these people fail to listen and understand why people have opposing views. If they did so, then they might have a hope of changing such beliefs.

Ian Lipkin (and Mady Hornig) are open minded when it comes to this stuff, they follow the science. I wouldn't hold back on any donations due to him stating that the MMR vaccine doesn't cause autism.

I do agree that people should continue to donate to Lipkin, as my wife and I have done. I think his body of work speaks for itself and we are lucky to have gotten his attention. I do however have serious doubts that if a vaccine connection revealed itself that it would be seriously and intensely followed up on by the CII group. I hope I'm wrong. There are plenty other areas of investigation where I trust him with little reservation.

I wish the pro-vax crowd in general was intent on working feverishly on figuring out why people are injured by vaccines, who might be at risk from vaccines, ways to manufacture safer vaccines, and safer vaccination schedules. Instead the only feverish intent that I see is to amass all their considerable might against any possible crack in the pro-vax wall...tolerate no dissent.

I've often thought of the similarity between vaccines today and human sacrifice to appease the gods in early civilizations. Of course it ruined the lives of those who were sacrificed, but it was for the greater good, so just do what you have to do and get on with your lives. It facilitates the majority belief, but it's not that comforting if you pull the short straw...
 

Old Bones

Senior Member
Messages
808
Considering the discussions in this thread, here's a timely newspaper article, published yesterday:

http://news.nationalpost.com/health/should-parents-be-punished-for-not-vaccinating?__lsa=9320-dcf7

Should parents be punished for not vaccinating? Doctors told to call child welfare in ‘exceptional circumstances’

The article starts with some very chilling words:

"Doctors are being advised to report parents to authorities with the power to seize children if they refuse vaccinations and a child is at serious risk of harm."
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
I'm not wildly anti-vaccine, but I'm greatly troubled when anyone feels the need to overstate what is known...as the pro-vaccine crowd is quick to do given any opportunity. If the truth is on your side, there is no need to overstate it and defend it like religion...

I've often thought of the similarity between vaccines today and human sacrifice to appease the gods in early civilizations. Of course it ruined the lives of those who were sacrificed, but it was for the greater good, so just do what you have

I find it intriguing that what you criticize provaxxers fot in the first quote is exactly what you are doing in the second quote.
 
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natasa778

Senior Member
Messages
1,774
Autism is not caused by vaccines, we do have whole-population based studies that show it does not ...

Population based studies === 'solving' crime reports by looking at crime statistics. And once you decide that your crime stats are clean, anyone coming forward reporting they've been a victim of a crime you can dismiss by saying "Aaaah, no, that couldn't have happened, our crime stats are spanking clean, and so we can happily dismiss and ignore your experience, and experiences of thousands of other people like you". Pathology report? you must be joking. Full medical? not in a million years you are not getting it, no means no. We've spent enough on ticking those boxes!! We told ya, you have imagined the whole thing, that bloody wound on the back of your head must have been there all along you just never noticed it, now shut up and go home"

You can't have those bloody people spoiling your stats, can you :bang-head::bang-head::bang-head:
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
Population based studies === 'solving' crime reports by looking at crime statistics. And once you decide that your crime stats are clean, anyone coming forward reporting they've been a victim of a crime you can dismiss by saying "Aaaah, no, that couldn't have happened, our crime stats are spanking clean, and so we can happily dismiss and ignore your experience, and experiences of thousands of other people like you". Pathology report? you must be joking. Full medical? not in a million years you are not getting it, no means no. We've spent enough on ticking those boxes!! We told ya, you have imagined the whole thing, that bloody wound on the back of your head must have been there all along you just never noticed it, now shut up and go home"

You can't have those bloody people spoiling your stats, can you :bang-head::bang-head::bang-head:

Whole population studies are arguably the least biased as they allow all variables to have an impact and have strong statistical power.

The more we learn about Autism though, the less likely it seems vaccines could be a culprit. (early signs of neurodevelopmental issues (via brain imaging) in children who later develop signs of autism) and secondly, the fact that autism is not induced by vaccines in older children suggests that it is unlikely. Unlike other immune system related diseases which can occur at any age.
 
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natasa778

Senior Member
Messages
1,774
Population based studies === 'solving' crime reports by looking at crime statistics. And once you decide that your crime stats are clean, anyone coming forward reporting they've been a victim of a crime you can dismiss by saying "Aaaah, no, that couldn't have happened, our crime stats are spanking clean, and so we can happily dismiss and ignore your experience, and experiences of thousands of other people like you". Pathology report? you must be joking. Full medical? not in a million years you are not getting it, no means no. We've spent enough on ticking those boxes!! We told ya, you have imagined the whole thing, that bloody wound on the back of your head must have been there all along you just never noticed it, now shut up and go home"

You can't have those bloody people spoiling your stats, can you :bang-head::bang-head::bang-head:


I'm not going to continue watching this thread but want to add this:

1. over 1/3 of all autism cases are regressive autism, where the child develops completely normally and then loses skills and developmental milestones. Not only language/communication but physical symptoms such as fevers, seizures, sleep disturbances, vomiting, regression in motor skills and coordination are also reported around this time. There are many theories but absolutely no medical explanation... leading to point no2.

2. Children who regress into autism are NEVER EVER medically examined (unless their parents are medical professionals and Johns Hopkins scientists, as in Hannah Polings case). We simply don't know what happens to all the thousands of others in terms of say cytokine/metabolic/mitochondrial profile before and after regression. We cannot say that xyz thing is NOT responsible for their regression, as in the vast majority of cases we simply don't have their medical data. For all we know there could be thousands of Hannah Polings out there...

3. There are no real biological studies in vaccine-autism link done ever. EVER. All we have are stats. No real science has ever been done. EVER.


Epidemiology is called the ‘basic science of public health,’ but its contribution to this goal is constrained by a preoccupation with supposedly universal exposure-disease relationships that impedes consideration of the contexts in which exposures occur. … [Because] exposure-disease relationships are not self-contained, homogeneous or independent phenomena, they constitute an inadequate object of epidemiological science (Wing, 1994, Medicine and Global Survival, 1, 74-86).


Lastly, if anyone is interested in behind the scenes politics behind this 'science' one needs to look no further than what ex-congresswoman Beth Clay has to say about it:

... I was the staff lead on the original House Oversight Committee’s investigation looking into concerns about vaccine injuries in 1999: "Because the government is abridging the freedom of Americans with these vaccine mandates, I anticipated that because it was a group of drugs that almost every American would receive, that the bar on approval – the safety requirements for approval – would be elevated.

Imagine my surprise and disgust to find just the opposite.

There seemed to be a rush to get something approved and in the marketplace so that manufacturers could make their investment back. (Yes that was a discussion in one of the advisory meetings!) Both the FDA and the CDC Advisory committee membership were replete with conflicts of interest that were either ignored or waived – meaning that individuals participating in the approval process of drugs or their recommendations for inclusion on the recommended schedule (to be mandated by the states), had financial ties to the makers of vaccines. The CDC was so lax in its management of their advisory committee that they simply granted everyone a waiver ‘whether they needed it or not...We gathered tens of thousands of pages of documents, conducted numerous hearings, prepared reports, etc. We were thorough in our attempt to gather information and speak to experts. We were repeatedly frustrated and often had the impression that officials from our health agencies were less than forthcoming. (Which is a polite way of saying, I felt like they were lying, but were masterful at it.) It was obvious that witnesses had been well rehearsed by agency lawyers in how to respond to questions and not really answer them...."

...
Not only did I feel that we were not getting the whole truth (and I was not alone in that feeling), but I watched scientists from NIH, CDC, and FDA promote weak, poorly designed scientific studies on a host of topics as if they were solid, conclusion drawing research. Nowhere to my knowledge, except in this discussion, has population based epidemiology been used to answer toxicological questions. Always, the more ‘hard’ science of laboratory work and animal studies would be top priority.

...
At every stage were obvious irregularities in process, from the manipulation of the thimerosal data to wash out links to autism; to changing the instructions to the IOM; to data from Denmark from studies that were fatally flawed from the outset being touted as reasons to end the debate. I heard scientists quoted in the media say that it was ‘settled science’ and that no other funds should be devoted to asking the question. Science is never ‘settled’. And yet, this notion was put forward and adopted because it was convenient for those who wanted this uncomfortable topic to fade out.

...
Over the last 15 years, I have watched parents be attacked and ridiculed by medical professionals and government officials for reporting their own personal experience with a child who was vaccine injured. I have watched a group of Special Masters express disdain for petitioners in the VICP and issue rulings with such bias that I am shocked when they are not rejected by the judges who review them on appeal.

I have watched the orchestrated opposition take aim at all who dare speak out about vaccine injury. Does anyone recall what happened to Representative Bachmann during the presidential election cycle when she dared discuss vaccine injury? While members of Congress have not expressed fear of that type of retaliation, I have had Congressional staff express real concern that their bosses will be so attacked. There is a real fear to engage on this issue because of the risks of retaliation.

These truths are simple – some people have no problem with vaccines, while others have serious adverse reactions. Some children are born completely healthy and suffer serious adverse reactions to vaccines, or vaccine ingredients, and regress into the condition known as Autism Spectrum Disorder. Some children born with genetic or environmental factors that leave them susceptible for vaccine injury and regress into autism after one or more vaccines. Not all autism is vaccine related, but some cases are. How large a percentage is not known.

Her original article copied in full here.
 

natasa778

Senior Member
Messages
1,774
Whole population studies are arguably the least biased as they allow all variables to have an impact and have strong statistical power.

If you witness you previously normal child child regress into autism (plus develops a host of other physical problems) following vaccinations the following thing happens:

1. you report it to your doctor
2. the doctor says 'it cannot be vaccines'
3. the doctor hangs up
4. your child is officially diagnosed with autism many months later (the waiting lists are very long in most places!) therefore no temporal correlation can ever be estabilished
4. your witnessed experience is dismissed and your child's case does not impact future stats


Happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

You can bleat on all you want about population studies, but bollocks in = bollocks out.
 

Fat Viking

Senior Member
Messages
153
I have been researching Hep B vaccine for just under a year now because I had the Hep B vaccine and suffered serious adverse reactions (you can read more about that here http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/please-help-me-out-with-this.48711/). From my research, there is no casual link that can be PROVED or DISPROVED between Hep B vaccine and disorders. If you suffered a neurological or autoimmune disorders as a result of Hep B vaccine, then in Court you are most likely to WIN the claim, however if you suffered a Rheumatic disorder as a result of Hep B vaccine, then in Court you are most likely to LOSE the claim. That's what I noticed from the case reports that I was able to find online (they were all American case reports though, I couldn't find any from the UK.)

"The VICP has reviewed 627 Hepatitis B vaccine lawsuits — 577 for injury, and 50 for death. As of June 1, 2012, they have awarded compensation in 210 cases and dismissed 353 cases."
https://www.schmidtlaw.com/hepatitis-b-vaccine-lawsuit/

"The VICP has reviewed a total of 48 Hepatitis A vaccine lawsuits, of which 46 were injury claims and 2 were claims for death. As of June 1, 2012, the VICP has compensated 12 cases and dismissed 14 cases."
https://www.schmidtlaw.com/hepatitis-a-vaccine-lawsuit/

As you can see there are more legal cases for Hep B vaccine then there is for Hep A vaccine.

Here are two citations that shows manifestations of Hep B vaccine:
Chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia following immunization with the hepatitis B vaccine: another angle of the 'autoimmune (auto-inflammatory) syndrome induced by adjuvants' (ASIA).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25427994

Autoimmunity following hepatitis B vaccine as part of the spectrum of 'Autoimmune (Auto-inflammatory) Syndrome induced by Adjuvants' (ASIA): analysis of 93 cases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22235045
 
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Old Bones

Senior Member
Messages
808
If you get a chance you should really watch todays Episode 3. Its an eye opener for sure

WOW! So far, we've only watched the first segment of Episode 3. Robert Kennedy Jr.'s interview is outstanding. For anyone with limited time or endurance, this is most concise description of the vaccine problem so far in the "Vaccines Revealed" docu-series.
 

JoanDublin

Senior Member
Messages
369
Location
Dublin, Ireland

Mij

Messages
2,353

https://www.masscfids.org/resource-...s/444-dr-byron-hyde-2012-fall-lecture-summary


Immunizations and CFIDS/ME and FM

Dr. Hyde emphatically stated that “immunizations save lives, and are better than all the doctors in the world put together”, but cautioned that doesn’t mean they are problem-free. His concern centered on two: recombinant hepatitis B immunization and the rubella immunization. Dr. Hyde also spoke to the issue of contaminated immunizations around the world and how they can possibly trigger CFIDS/ME/FM illnesses.

He has personally seen some very ill, bed-ridden patients as a result of the recombinant hepatitis B immunizations, causing disautonomia― the dis-connect between the brain and the ability to maintain normal pressure in peripheral arteries.

Dr. Hyde explained how the rubella immunization can cause rheumatoid arthritis. If a pregnant woman has not had the vaccine, she cannot receive it while pregnant because it will cause harm to her unborn child. When Dr. Hyde started in practice, the current wisdom of the day then was to give the immunization immediately after childbirth to both the mother and child. If the mother was breast-feeding, a sensitivity to, not immunization from rubella would develop in the child. If the child was a boy, nothing happened to the child. If the child was a girl, and she received a booster for that vaccine in grade 8 (in Canada), she could go on to develop an internal auto-immune reaction which then could develop into rheumatoid arthritis. Dr. Hyde pointed out that this is 12-14 years after the initial insult to the body.

Contaminated Immunizations. Dr. Hyde discussed some of the issues around immunizations that have been contaminated and still go to market. For example, during 2004-2005 some batches of the flu vaccine manufactured by Chiron Labs in England became tainted with Serratia Marcescens. The US and Canada bought vaccines made in England because they were cheaper. Even though the company informed the buyers about this contamination, the US and Canada continued to use the immunizations for 6 more months. Dr. Hyde feels many people probably got ill with CFIDS/ME after this.

Immunization and travel start date. Dr. Hyde emphatically told the audience that when preparing for travel abroad, particularly following and during trips to third world countries, “NEVER get an immunization and then travel immediately. Always allow 30 days between the injection and the travel plans to allow the immunization to take effect.” He explained that if, by chance, you got on a plane the week following the immunization, and sat next to someone with a minor virus, your immune system may not be able to fight it off and you could end up becoming chronically ill with CFIDS/ME. A VIRUS PLUS AN IMMUNIZATION DO NOT MIX WELL. . He reiterated that acute ME is usually not detectable by routine examination and only a SPECT, BEAM or PET scan can pick up the encephalopathy.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I have been investigating research on vaccines deeply for about the last couple of years and I am appalled. Knowing what I know now.........I consider it nothing less than criminal to give vaccinations.

I tend to think of very polarized views like that as "counterweight opinions": they only serve as a counterweight against other people who have equally polarized but polar opposite opinions. But the truth usually resides somewhere in the middle of the extremes of opinion.