Uric acid

[Gondwanaland]

I'm one who can't tolerate magnesium

Hi, Penny, for a long time now I haven't tolerated magnesium myself anymore, but I just found out that if I take a small doese of vitamin B1 at dinner, later at bedtime I can take magnesium without the night sweats it had been causing me lately.

 

[PennyIA]

Hi, Penny, for a long time now I haven't tolerated magnesium myself anymore, but I just found out that if I take a small doese of vitamin B1 at dinner, later at bedtime I can take magnesium without the night sweats it had been causing me lately.

I'll be honest? the explosive bowel movements I got with even a barely there dose? I'm not really willing to experiment.

 

[Rand56]

Another thing, all of these aminos are really geared toward NMDA agonism, and I wonder for those who would benefit from this including probably me a few months back, how much of the feeling is actually due to NMDA, vs NAD or other.

I can say with certainty NMDA agonism can feel pretty good, I took sarcosine (methylglycine) alone (again repeating myself) which is potent for that in small doses and it was effective and positive, up to a dose where it produced some fibro-like pain in random places. It doesn't account for the whole effect I had before, but part of it felt familiar. (on the flip side, NMDA antagonism does nothing in the short term for me except make me dumber)

Hi tunguska

I know this is an older thread and post, but I was searching for some posts on sarcosine. I must be like you, I feel better on NMDA agonists. Magnesium makes me feel more like a slug and worsens my depression. I've been combining DAA and sarcosine, and getting a decent response. Let's see if it will last LOL. Better energy and lessening my depression. I was taking D-serine awhile back, and I should have either taken more of it, or maybe combined it with something else. If I may ask, what dosage were you taking with the sarcosine when you started noticing more fibro pain? For now, I'm just doing 700 mg's twice per day. Just doing 3 grams of DAA in the morning.

 

[Tunguska]

Hi tunguska

I know this is an older thread and post, but I was searching for some posts on sarcosine. I must be like you, I feel better on NMDA agonists. Magnesium makes me feel more like a slug and worsens my depression. I've been combining DAA and sarcosine, and getting a decent response. Let's see if it will last LOL. Better energy and lessening my depression. I was taking D-serine awhile back, and I should have either taken more of it, or maybe combined it with something else. If I may ask, what dosage were you taking with the sarcosine when you started noticing more fibro pain? For now, I'm just doing 700 mg's twice per day. Just doing 3 grams of DAA in the morning.

Nearing 2 grams sarcosine per dose or over, produced fibro pain. 700mg would have been fine.

But I never took over 1.5g DAA. D-serine have not tried. All I can suggest is cycling them, days without.

 

[Crux]

Here are a couple of articles regarding the possible causes of elevated uric acid.
Elevated insulin is the main suspect.

High insulin may cause non-alcoholic fatty liver, high uric acid, and iron overload, among other things.

@Gondwanaland ; this is for you, respectfully.

http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/17/4/548/htm

http://www.jabfm.org/content/24/4/415.full

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Crux my insulin is low. This is where my research has led me:

1) 2016 Intestinal Microbiota Distinguish Gout Patients from Healthy Humans
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep20602
"the intestinal microbiota of gout patients are highly distinct from healthy individuals in both organismal and functional structures"
"The established reference microbial gene catalogue for gout revealed disorder in purine degradation and butyric acid biosynthesis in gout patients"

2) 2001 Hyperuricemia and gout in thyroid endocrine disorders
http://www.clinexprheumatol.org/article.asp?a=1194
"In comparison to the prevalence reported in the general population, a significant increase of both hyperuricemia and gout was found in the hypothyroid patients, and of hyperuricemia in the hyperthyroid patients. In hyperthyroidism the hyperuricemia is due to the increased urate production, while in hypothyroidism the hyperuricemia is secondary to a decreased renal plasma flow and impaired glomerular filtration"

3) 2014 Hyperthyroid and Hypothyroid Status Was Strongly Associated with Gout and Weakly Associated with Hyperuricaemia
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0114579
"Both hyperthyroid and hypothyroid status were significantly associated with gout and weakly associated with hyperuricaemia. A thyroid function test for gout patients may by warranted"

4) 2013 Serum uric acid in relation to endogenous reproductive hormones during the menstrual cycle: findings from the BioCycle study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3685334/
"Mean uric acid concentrations were highest during the follicular phase, and were inversely associated with E2 and progesterone, and positively associated with FSH."

5) 2002 Etiological role of estrogen status in renal stone formation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12394677
"The lower risk of stone formation in women may be due to the lower urinary saturation of stone forming salts. Estrogen treatment may decrease the risk of stone recurrence in postmenopausal women by lowering urinary calcium and calcium oxalate saturation"

6) 2008 Postmenopausal Hormone Replacement May Reduce Uric Acid Levels in Women
https://www.hopkinsarthritis.org/ar...acement-may-reduce-uric-acid-levels-in-women/
"The association of menopause with increased uric acid levels was partially abrogated in women using HRT"

7) 1991 Gout and Vitamin A Intoxication: Is There a Connection?
http://sci-hub.bz/10.1016/0049-0172(91)90030-4
A number of cases of increased uric acid levels have been reported following the use of isotretinoin (Accutane, Hoffman LaRoche, Nutley, NJ, 13-cis-retinoic acid), a synthetic derivative of vitamin A, for severe acne.“’ Hyperuricemia was detected after 16 to 109 days of treatment with 40 to 80 mg of isotretinoin daily.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Crux I do not have NAFLD (cured it in 2013 by going gluten free) and my iron and ferritin levels are healthy.

 

[Crux]

@Gondwanaland ;

Have you had an iron panel? Just wondering...

Oops, I see your response.

Did you have transferrin saturation tested?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Did you have transferrin saturation tested?

Everything normal in the iron front. Problems with hormones though... It seems that Niacin is needed for healthy hormone synthesis, and I have been overmethylated long enough...

 

[PennyIA]

This thread popped up and reminded me to post my current reactions to my gout pain and the tart cherry supplements.

I'm still too chicken to go to a high protein diet (though it is tempting). But when I accidentally eat too much protein and have a gout flare up... I can take 4 tart cherry supplements every 4 hours and the pain is dramatically reduced instantly. If it comes back around the 4 hour mark, I take another 4 supplements and the pain drops again.

I've debated taking it daily as a preventative. But I'm having trouble tolerating any of the methylation supplements right now so I don't really want to tempt fate. I'll still take it as a treatment since it works so well for reducing pain.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm still too chicken to go to a high protein diet (though it is tempting).

I have just given up of it thank to a severe gout crisis. After 3 years eating high protein my joints are full of uric acid.

But I'm having trouble tolerating any of the methylation supplements right now so I don't really want to tempt fate.

Methyl donors increase uric acid, even melatonin supplementation.

I can take 4 tart cherry supplements every 4 hours and the pain is dramatically reduced instantly. If it comes back around the 4 hour mark, I take another 4 supplements and the pain drops again.

I wish I could take such supplements, but they start moving uric acid around my body and I get that breathlessness typical of salicylate sensitivity. I have tried eating ONE cherry daily and it was too much salicylate for me to handle. B5, white cheeses and magnesium oxide help with that, but the whole conundrum messes up with my thyroid hormones

Milk Thistle extract and Omega 3 have been helping me with the inflammation.

 

[PennyIA]

I wondered if the pain that migrates after I take those is the uric acid moving around. It does break it down, but if it's a bad episode, there's additional pain after taking the supplements.

Guess I'll just stay on my moderate protein with low purines as a diet for a bit longer. I can state that the gout episodes were exceptionally rare prior to methylation treatment. And now it's a problem on a regular basis (not sure if it's just age, but most likely attributed to improving the methylation process).

It's still not in my regular medical chart, I had an integrative md diagnosis over the phone when I found brown chrystals in my urine, but told me that uric acid testing is notoriously unpredictably high and low which was his reasoning why so many people finding high or low uric acid in tests for specific conditions are hard to replicate.

 

[helen1]

@Gondwanaland and PennyIA You might want to try curcurmin for gout flares. I have found it reduces gout pain and inflammation by about 80% in 12 hours. Then 100% in the next 12 hours. I take it both orally and rub it on the affected area with an oil (then put a sock over it).

 

[Gondwanaland]

uric acid testing is notoriously unpredictably high and low which was his reasoning why so many people finding high or low uric acid in tests for specific conditions are hard to replicate.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/family-health-guide/gout-joint-pain-and-more
uric acid levels are typically elevated for 20 to 30 years before they cause any trouble, which is why gout usually occurs in middle-aged and older men. But gout can also be triggered by a rapid drop in uric acid levels, which is why up to 30% of men with gout have normal uric acid levels at the time of an attack.

An attack of gout occurs when excess uric acid is deposited in a joint and forms urate crystals that irritate the joint lining. White blood cells try to gobble up the crystals, but they are not equal to the task. The white blood cells are themselves damaged, releasing chemicals that cause inflammation, swelling, and pain.

The 2nd paragraph above IMO explains how autoimmunity can develop.

@Gondwanaland and PennyIA You might want to try curcurmin for gout flares. I have found it reduces gout pain and inflammation by about 80% in 12 hours. Then 100% in the next 12 hours. I take it both orally and rub it on the affected area with an oil (then put a sock over it).

My experience with it is of uric acid being stirred up. Additionally, curcumin is a methyl donor, so I guess it could be stimulating xanthine oxidase to produce new crystals at the same time...

 

[PennyIA]

@Gondwanaland and PennyIA You might want to try curcurmin for gout flares. I have found it reduces gout pain and inflammation by about 80% in 12 hours. Then 100% in the next 12 hours. I take it both orally and rub it on the affected area with an oil (then put a sock over it).

I'll look into it. I know that I recently found out about tumeric and then found it was contra indicated for me... so I'll dig some this time before going too deep into it.

Is there any concern that I don't have visible inflammation in the gout impacted joints? Pain, definitely. And the pain doesn't respond to typically NSAIDs nor Acetaminophen (the only two non rx pain meds available to me and with rx pain meds off the table due to allergies). I do take NSAIDs pretty consistently as I have chronic tendinitis that has been bothering my wrists for the last 25 years.

While the tart cherry does cause some movement of the pain, the pain in the impacted joint is gone within 20 minutes after taking it and then the moved pain is usually gone within an hour. I was thinking it was somehow breaking up then breaking it down. Is the tart cherry just moving it?

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

I'll look into it. I know that I recently found out about tumeric and then found it was contra indicated for me... so I'll dig some this time before going too deep into it.

Is there any concern that I don't have visible inflammation in the gout impacted joints? Pain, definitely. And the pain doesn't respond to typically NSAIDs nor Acetaminophen (the only two non rx pain meds available to me and with rx pain meds off the table due to allergies). I do take NSAIDs pretty consistently as I have chronic tendinitis that has been bothering my wrists for the last 25 years.

While the tart cherry does cause some movement of the pain, the pain in the impacted joint is gone within 20 minutes after taking it and then the moved pain is usually gone within an hour. I was thinking it was somehow breaking up then breaking it down. Is the tart cherry just moving it?

Dear PennyIA,

Gout pretty much never occurs without redness and swelling. The pain normally responds fairly well to NSAI although the course of the attack may still have to be run usually 12 hours to a few days. Gout pain never goes away in 20 minutes because the white cells take longer than that to disappear. The inflammation cannot move to another site because it is a section to monosodium rate in a particular place. The crystals tend to stay where they are pretty much permanently unless they are dissolved away by reducing serum urate levels.

The crystals in gouty joints are not uric acid. Uric acid crystals are common and normal in urine. Urine is the only place in the body where uric acid as such occurs because it can only crystallise under the acid conditions of urine.

As far as I know protein intake has no particular effect on circulating urate levels. Purine intake can have a slight effect but virtually all gout occurs largely for other reasons.

Are you sure you have gout? From what you describe it seems unlikely.

 

[Gondwanaland]

While the tart cherry does cause some movement of the pain, the pain in the impacted joint is gone within 20 minutes after taking it and then the moved pain is usually gone within an hour. I was thinking it was somehow breaking up then breaking it down. Is the tart cherry just moving it?

From my personal observation by taking magnesium malate (cherries are very high in malate), the malate solubilizes urate, so in order to not have continued urate deposition in the joints/tissues, one should take it perhaps more than once daily. The consequence will be a long solubilization and increased need for collagen- and bone-forming minerals and nutrients.

 

[Gondwanaland]

As far as I know protein intake has no particular effect on circulating urate levels. Purine intake can have a slight effect but virtually all gout occurs largely for other reasons.

Thanks for the explanation.

I wonder why eating high purine foods makes all my joints ache. I know gout isn't typically symmetrical, nor are my aches. Additionally to the joint pain I have small painful nodules that sometimes form in the palms of my hands - they are more common in winter, but this time they are flaring in the summer.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Here is something to look into:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
Genetics[edit]
A proportion of people have mutations in the proteins responsible for the excretion of uric acid by the kidneys. Variants within a number of genes have so far been identified: SLC2A9; ABCG2; SLC17A1; SLC22A11; SLC22A12; SLC16A9; GCKR; LRRC16A; and PDZK1.[18][19][20] SLC2A9 is known to transport both uric acid and fructose.[14][21]

I have already spotted some homozygous SNPs in the SLC2A9 gene with increased risk for gout (those are pretty common SNPs).

 

[Gondwanaland]

The crystals in gouty joints are not uric acid.

Could they be sodium urate?