Uric acid

[sueami]

Okay. I'm waiting for aspartic acid to come in the mail. Taking as much magnesium aspartate as I dare (don't need to hit bowel tolerance on the mg), which is only about 800mg.

I feel okay right now, after taking a 3.2 mg dose at 4 pm of glutamine (and the two other supps), for a total of 12.1 g today. Hopefully I can get the aspartate in the next day or two.

The glutamine dosage came from this site. I might do some more reading if I have a chance:
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/glutamine

 

[brenda]

Have been off ribose for two days to see what effect it is having on my glucose levels. They have gone down. After using my monitor tomorrow morning l will have to decide whether l can carry on with ribose if it is raising glucose levels when it is supposed to lower them. Only taking 1/8 teasp 2x daily.

 

[sueami]

I have discovered why I have been inhaling this product the last month or so.

http://coconutsweetener.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-is-coconut-aminos.html

At first I thought it was b/c it was one of the few sauces/seasonings allowed on my auto immune protocol diet, but after ramping up consumption to the point i was finishing a bottle in about four days, I started to wonder if it was the specific aminos in it. Finally got around to looking up what was in it. Glutamic and aspartic acid are two of the top 3.

Hopefully this will keep my aspartic up until the actual supplement arrives.

 

[brenda]

Good news as l use it.

 

[Tunguska]

I have a question, is there any reason to doubt whether aspartic acid from food is absorped differently (less) than from supplements? e.g. competing aminos?

When I look up chicken breast, 43g of protein gives 3870mg aspartic acid which seems like it'd be more than enough with the amount I eat. Contrasted with glutamine which there's hardly any (though surely you get some from the 6504mg glutamate of course) and glycine which is low in most proteins (well, 2133mg here). In fact based on that NAD recipe I'd regularly be getting too much aspartic acid compared to glutamine.

More on topic I came to the conclusion some time ago that uric acid was actually a good thing for NO radicals and part of the reason I ate purines to keep it up. But at the same time some of the enzymes involved can actually generate superoxide depending on conditions so it's not clear-cut. Cutting out purines definitely doesn't help anyway, except brewer's yeast which is a strange beast.

 

[Tunguska]

I guess worth pointing out, chicken breast seems like a good food for a starting point for this recipe. Aspartic acid, glutamate (for some glutamine), a bit of glycine, 100% rda B3, inosine + hypoxanthine. I ate a lot of it along with low-mercury fish which has similar profile which is part of why I think I already exhausted the recipe's potential on myself and my problems are somewhere else now (d-ribose helps with overall energy levels but does not affect the character of my depression, similar to short initial effects I had from high doses of B1 actually, but better). When I had good results many months ago it was while eating much of these things. High probability I'm repeating myself.

 

[Tunguska]

Another thing, all of these aminos are really geared toward NMDA agonism, and I wonder for those who would benefit from this including probably me a few months back, how much of the feeling is actually due to NMDA, vs NAD or other.

I can say with certainty NMDA agonism can feel pretty good, I took sarcosine (methylglycine) alone (again repeating myself) which is potent for that in small doses and it was effective and positive, up to a dose where it produced some fibro-like pain in random places. It doesn't account for the whole effect I had before, but part of it felt familiar. (on the flip side, NMDA antagonism does nothing in the short term for me except make me dumber)

 

[Kimsie]

I have a question, is there any reason to doubt whether aspartic acid from food is absorped differently (less) than from supplements? e.g. competing aminos?

When I look up chicken breast, 43g of protein gives 3870mg aspartic acid which seems like it'd be more than enough with the amount I eat. Contrasted with glutamine which there's hardly any (though surely you get some from the 6504mg glutamate of course) and glycine which is low in most proteins (well, 2133mg here). In fact based on that NAD recipe I'd regularly be getting too much aspartic acid compared to glutamine.

More on topic I came to the conclusion some time ago that uric acid was actually a good thing for NO radicals and part of the reason I ate purines to keep it up. But at the same time some of the enzymes involved can actually generate superoxide depending on conditions so it's not clear-cut. Cutting out purines definitely doesn't help anyway, except brewer's yeast which is a strange beast.

Another thing, all of these aminos are really geared toward NMDA agonism, and I wonder for those who would benefit from this including probably me a few months back, how much of the feeling is actually due to NMDA, vs NAD or other.

I can say with certainty NMDA agonism can feel pretty good, I took sarcosine (methylglycine) alone (again repeating myself) which is potent for that in small doses and it was effective and positive, up to a dose where it produced some fibro-like pain in random places. It doesn't account for the whole effect I had before, but part of it felt familiar. (on the flip side, NMDA antagonism does nothing in the short term for me except make me dumber)

Taking the amino acids as amino acids does seem to push something, probably because of the sudden rise in levels compared to getting them from food. I am in the process of considering whether the amino acids are really needed if a person has enough meat in their diet or not. I am pretty sure that the ribose is a big help. The niacin or niacinamide probably depends on whether a person is an under or over methylator.

In schizophrenia the NMDA receptors are understimultated, and so you might have a point. The amino acids don't freely cross the BBB, though, and from what I understand, purine synthesis can take place in other parts of the body and pass the BBB, so that leans toward the NAD idea.

I am doing more studying on NAD salvage and I hope to have some answers or at least plausible explanations for some of these puzzling things soon.

 

[Tunguska]

Taking the amino acids as amino acids does seem to push something, probably because of the sudden rise in levels compared to getting them from food.

That makes sense, actually I've experienced that sort of thing but it didn't cross my mind here.

To give an idea, on some stretches I would eat easily 90g of chicken protein in a day over one or two meals, so that's about 8g of aspartate. No idea how long it takes to digest, couple hours since there's not much fat?

I am pretty sure that the ribose is a big help.

Like I wrote, now that I've tried it, it does have an effect on energy, but while I'm at it for comparison I would say sarcosine comes closer to reshaping mental state (but it's not quite uridine which had a huge effect on what I perceived/assumed to be the pre frontal cortex). Again though I have a peculiar problem which might not apply to others.

In schizophrenia the NMDA receptors are understimultated, and so you might have a point. The amino acids don't freely cross the BBB, though, and from what I understand, purine synthesis can take place in other parts of the body and pass the BBB, so that leans toward the NAD idea.

Yeah they're using both moderate doses of sarcosine (~2g or something?) and mega-doses of glycine for schizophrenia, it's what got me interested in it.

Look forward to the rest, always helpful.

 

[Kimsie]

I would like to see if there is a correlation between high uric acid and not being deficient in B6.
alex3619, do you know what you B6 state is?

 

[PennyIA]

I've been pretty quiet in this thread (as most of it is over my head)... but having gone through FINALLY getting my B6 levels not only back into normal levels after having B6 toxicity - but a few more years before I ALSO got a lot of the B6 toxicity symptoms to resolve.

And now I'm experiencing gout which is tied to high uric acid... I had occasional gout-like symptoms before I started taking b6 (standard over the counter not-good-for-MTHFR type).... of course, I didn't realize it back then... just thought my toe hurting was due to clumsiness, etc.

Then I started taking B6 and lo and behold, no toe pain (though of course, it was rare enough that I didn't connect dots).

But my B6 toxicity symptoms have cleared away approx. 6 months ago... and for the past 3-4 months I've noticed the gout-potential symptoms... toe pain, crystals in urine ... I don't eat hardly any foods high in purine, but if I cut back in meat products, the symptoms resolve temporarily.

 

[Kimsie]

I've been pretty quiet in this thread (as most of it is over my head)... but having gone through FINALLY getting my B6 levels not only back into normal levels after having B6 toxicity - but a few more years before I ALSO got a lot of the B6 toxicity symptoms to resolve.

And now I'm experiencing gout which is tied to high uric acid... I had occasional gout-like symptoms before I started taking b6 (standard over the counter not-good-for-MTHFR type).... of course, I didn't realize it back then... just thought my toe hurting was due to clumsiness, etc.

Then I started taking B6 and lo and behold, no toe pain (though of course, it was rare enough that I didn't connect dots).

But my B6 toxicity symptoms have cleared away approx. 6 months ago... and for the past 3-4 months I've noticed the gout-potential symptoms... toe pain, crystals in urine ... I don't eat hardly any foods high in purine, but if I cut back in meat products, the symptoms resolve temporarily.

So you are saying that you have high uric acid and tend to also have high B6, or taking B6 helped your gout symptoms and then your B6 got too high? What do you mean by B6 toxicity. Were you tested? What symptoms did it give you?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@PennyIA have you paired magnesium with b6 or took the vitamin on its own? Magnesium clears uric acid and helps B6 metabolism.

 

[PennyIA]

Short answers:

Yes, I serum B6 toxicity test results - from Mayo Clinic in Rochester
No, it seems like high uric acid *might* be inverse of b6 levels... not sure if there's any relationship, just relating my experience - as I thought it might be meaningful as I've experienced both
Symptoms - nerve issues, muscle issues, pain, fatigue, balance, completely incompacitated at times
Magnesium - I was taking B6 alone, I cannot find any magnesium supplement that I can tolerate - am currently doing epsom salt baths (as of last 18 months) and my magnesium levels are normal as are my b6 results currently

I just spent the first two weeks of this year in a flare - no swelling, just serious toe pain that I couldn't put any weight on it nor wear shoes nor even a pair of socks, blanket on my foot, nothing. And a couple of passes of crystals in my urine ... my bad, I splurged on shrimp for New Years and didn't even think about the purines being high in shellfish. I won't be making that mistake again any time soon.


Longer Answers;
OK background information:

I did have rare, occasional out of no where toe pain... that I now recognize as probably gout though it never crossed my mind the 10 -15 years ago when I was having it... it was rare, I didn't see it often, I'd just think... darn... what did I do and why does my toe hurt? Not seriously bad pain, but now that I'm seeing it more frequently and my 26 yr old son has gotten diagnosed with gout - it raised a flag for me that it was probably related.

At that time I was not taking B6 at all.

Right around the 10 year ago mark is when I was diagnosed with high homocysteine levels and I started taking folic acid, b12, b6. I didn't know I had MTHFR let alone why I shouldn't buy the cheapest available supplements on the market... in fact, doctor recommended that I buy them separately at Walgreens/local market over getting a prescription as it would be a cost saver (boy, do I wish I could go back to that date).

I started getting ill within three months of taking the supplements. Now that I've found out more about MTHFR I realize that the Folic Acid was blocking any natural source of folate and I was becoming folate deficient. I was testing high on B12 (as my initial symptoms were related to fatigue) ... but now I know it's probably related to not processing the b12 well enough. And my b6 levels didn't get tested for AGES.

Within six months I was having trouble with balance, having parathesis on my right side, losing sensitivity to heat/cold on my right side... having vision issues... within nine months I was completely bedridden for three months due to severe damage where I couldn't keep my balance. I could walk aided, but couldn't stand without assistance as my sense of balance was completely gone.

Symptom list: crushing fatigue, pem, occasional hand tremors, burning and shooting pain, numbness, issues with sensitivity, muscle pain, some muscle strength issues (though thankfully those seemed always short-lived), vision issues, balance issues, mood issues (I wanted to isolate myself) (fwiw, I read up on b6 toxicity after the fact, other than PEM? It's a pretty direct match)

Doctors were completely stumped for several years... went to Mayo, Iowa Hospitals and Clinics had two sets of specialists do the full work up, they found nothing.

BUT, my mother was tested B6 toxic and new I was taking b6 still at that point. It took a few more years before I could convince my doctors to test my b6 levels (they swore to me it was impossible for me to become toxic on the dose I was taking). When I finally did get tested, I tested HIGH, really HIGH... like over 200 ng/mL though I don't remember the exact level.

Doctors, of course, told me to stop taking B6. But they really didn't give me any other advice. When I asked about ways to reduce it or process it, or long-term prognosis... I got a lot of shrugs. They couldn't explain how I became toxic nor what to do to handle it.

In all of this time? My toes were never in pain... ever. go figure

I was still ill and my B6 levels did get retested and fairly quickly dropped down to normal levels... however, the symptoms remained.

I did try taking P5P and I do tolerate it without getting toxic (good)... but I still wasn't seeing an improvement in my symptoms.

WHEN MY B6 toxicity symptoms started to resolve:
It wasn't until I started doing methylation treatment and started ramping up my methylfolate and taking the epsom salt baths that I saw an improvement in many of my symptoms. (woot! epsom salt baths = magnesium and might be another crucial piece)

I've still had energy and other unexplained crashes since... but the chronic numbness and issues with sensitivity is completely gone. I still get some balance issues - but I now also have some gut issues and I think I'm struggling with mild dehydration - we've added more salt to my diet and potassium supplements are helping.

GOUT:
I started getting the toe pain again about eight to ten months ago. Didn't think much of it with everything else going on in my life... but then I had some brown crystals in my urine. I spoke to my doctor and he said... hmmm.... not really kidney stone related... more likely gout. And this is about two weeks after my son who is young for it... got diagnosed with gout. And I go... gout? Isn't that linked to toe pain? I don't have toe pain.... oh, wait. Yes I do.

So I started to pay attention to the timing.. and sure enough... if I had a big meat meal - I'd have a flare up. Cut back, and the symptoms would ease... eat some shelfish and bam... here's the symptoms again.

So, at this point, my B6 has been tested again recently, still well within normal limits... but my uric acid hasn't been tested yet. I've been told serum testing for uric acid isn't very reliable, so I haven't pushed for it. It's exceptionally rare for me to eat anything really high in purines. It's been about ten months and I'm down to a flare up every other month or so, usually after I eat something I ought not to have.

I'm not able to take more epsom salt baths than I do now, just not enough time ... but I am doing three to four a week. I don't tolerate any supplement that contains even the smallest dose of magnesium in it... so I did order some magnesium oil to see if I could increase my levels that way - but I break out in hives when I apply it... so for now I'm just taking the baths.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I don't tolerate any supplement that contains even the smallest dose of magnesium in it.

What happens?

 

[PennyIA]

What happens?

Within 20 minutes I experience explosive diahrrea and severe cramping that lasts around 30 minutes.

 

[Kimsie]

Short answers:

Yes, I serum B6 toxicity test results - from Mayo Clinic in Rochester
No, it seems like high uric acid *might* be inverse of b6 levels... not sure if there's any relationship, just relating my experience - as I thought it might be meaningful as I've experienced both
Symptoms - nerve issues, muscle issues, pain, fatigue, balance, completely incompacitated at times
Magnesium - I was taking B6 alone, I cannot find any magnesium supplement that I can tolerate - am currently doing epsom salt baths (as of last 18 months) and my magnesium levels are normal as are my b6 results currently

I just spent the first two weeks of this year in a flare - no swelling, just serious toe pain that I couldn't put any weight on it nor wear shoes nor even a pair of socks, blanket on my foot, nothing. And a couple of passes of crystals in my urine ... my bad, I splurged on shrimp for New Years and didn't even think about the purines being high in shellfish. I won't be making that mistake again any time soon.


Longer Answers;
OK background information:

I did have rare, occasional out of no where toe pain... that I now recognize as probably gout though it never crossed my mind the 10 -15 years ago when I was having it... it was rare, I didn't see it often, I'd just think... darn... what did I do and why does my toe hurt? Not seriously bad pain, but now that I'm seeing it more frequently and my 26 yr old son has gotten diagnosed with gout - it raised a flag for me that it was probably related.

At that time I was not taking B6 at all.

Right around the 10 year ago mark is when I was diagnosed with high homocysteine levels and I started taking folic acid, b12, b6. I didn't know I had MTHFR let alone why I shouldn't buy the cheapest available supplements on the market... in fact, doctor recommended that I buy them separately at Walgreens/local market over getting a prescription as it would be a cost saver (boy, do I wish I could go back to that date).

I started getting ill within three months of taking the supplements. Now that I've found out more about MTHFR I realize that the Folic Acid was blocking any natural source of folate and I was becoming folate deficient. I was testing high on B12 (as my initial symptoms were related to fatigue) ... but now I know it's probably related to not processing the b12 well enough. And my b6 levels didn't get tested for AGES.

Within six months I was having trouble with balance, having parathesis on my right side, losing sensitivity to heat/cold on my right side... having vision issues... within nine months I was completely bedridden for three months due to severe damage where I couldn't keep my balance. I could walk aided, but couldn't stand without assistance as my sense of balance was completely gone.

Symptom list: crushing fatigue, pem, occasional hand tremors, burning and shooting pain, numbness, issues with sensitivity, muscle pain, some muscle strength issues (though thankfully those seemed always short-lived), vision issues, balance issues, mood issues (I wanted to isolate myself) (fwiw, I read up on b6 toxicity after the fact, other than PEM? It's a pretty direct match)

Doctors were completely stumped for several years... went to Mayo, Iowa Hospitals and Clinics had two sets of specialists do the full work up, they found nothing.

BUT, my mother was tested B6 toxic and new I was taking b6 still at that point. It took a few more years before I could convince my doctors to test my b6 levels (they swore to me it was impossible for me to become toxic on the dose I was taking). When I finally did get tested, I tested HIGH, really HIGH... like over 200 ng/mL though I don't remember the exact level.

Doctors, of course, told me to stop taking B6. But they really didn't give me any other advice. When I asked about ways to reduce it or process it, or long-term prognosis... I got a lot of shrugs. They couldn't explain how I became toxic nor what to do to handle it.

In all of this time? My toes were never in pain... ever. go figure

I was still ill and my B6 levels did get retested and fairly quickly dropped down to normal levels... however, the symptoms remained.

I did try taking P5P and I do tolerate it without getting toxic (good)... but I still wasn't seeing an improvement in my symptoms.

WHEN MY B6 toxicity symptoms started to resolve:
It wasn't until I started doing methylation treatment and started ramping up my methylfolate and taking the epsom salt baths that I saw an improvement in many of my symptoms. (woot! epsom salt baths = magnesium and might be another crucial piece)

I've still had energy and other unexplained crashes since... but the chronic numbness and issues with sensitivity is completely gone. I still get some balance issues - but I now also have some gut issues and I think I'm struggling with mild dehydration - we've added more salt to my diet and potassium supplements are helping.

GOUT:
I started getting the toe pain again about eight to ten months ago. Didn't think much of it with everything else going on in my life... but then I had some brown crystals in my urine. I spoke to my doctor and he said... hmmm.... not really kidney stone related... more likely gout. And this is about two weeks after my son who is young for it... got diagnosed with gout. And I go... gout? Isn't that linked to toe pain? I don't have toe pain.... oh, wait. Yes I do.

So I started to pay attention to the timing.. and sure enough... if I had a big meat meal - I'd have a flare up. Cut back, and the symptoms would ease... eat some shelfish and bam... here's the symptoms again.

So, at this point, my B6 has been tested again recently, still well within normal limits... but my uric acid hasn't been tested yet. I've been told serum testing for uric acid isn't very reliable, so I haven't pushed for it. It's exceptionally rare for me to eat anything really high in purines. It's been about ten months and I'm down to a flare up every other month or so, usually after I eat something I ought not to have.

I'm not able to take more epsom salt baths than I do now, just not enough time ... but I am doing three to four a week. I don't tolerate any supplement that contains even the smallest dose of magnesium in it... so I did order some magnesium oil to see if I could increase my levels that way - but I break out in hives when I apply it... so for now I'm just taking the baths.

Have you tried taking D-ribose? That might help with the purine salvage pathway and cut down on the uric acid. If you have taken ribose, how did it affect you?

It sounds like taking B6 without the other B's, or without forms of the other B's that you can use, caused the problem, or maybe you were low in zinc? Zinc helps to change B6 to P5P.

 

[PennyIA]

Have you tried taking D-ribose? That might help with the purine salvage pathway and cut down on the uric acid. If you have taken ribose, how did it affect you?

It sounds like taking B6 without the other B's, or without forms of the other B's that you can use, caused the problem, or maybe you were low in zinc? Zinc helps to change B6 to P5P.

I was taking B6, b12 and folic acid together - not a b-complex, but individually. It may be that I was missing a key nutrient - totally feasible. But as I've learned more about MTHFR, it just seems as if there might be some portions of the methylation process that just doesn't work as well in my system and I believe that taking these in the forms I took them made things go bad really quickly. FWIW, my mother ALSO became highly toxic on B6 on a very low dose... but her level of comprehension severely declined and the doctors convinced her she must have been taking handfuls of the pills (she wasn't, but she was getting confused at that point).

Doesn't mean that my mother's and my issue was technically tied to MTHFR, but I would be surprised if it wasn't related to something very uniquely tied to genetics and it might even be that our zinc levels are hard to maintain and/or otherwise.

I haven't tried taking d-ribose yet.

I did find that I get almost instant relief from gout pain when taking A/C Carbimide (a highly alkaline mineral). But the source where I was getting it from wouldn't sell me a whole bottle, just a packet which would get ruined and was costing more than I liked... so I'm still researching online sources for it after failing to find it locally.

 

[adreno]

Another thing, all of these aminos are really geared toward NMDA agonism, and I wonder for those who would benefit from this including probably me a few months back, how much of the feeling is actually due to NMDA, vs NAD or other.

I have been thinking the exact same thing. This might actually be the reason it's helping @Kimsie's son with schizophrenia. NMDA agonism is also involved with keeping catecholamines in check, and these are usually elevated in schizophrenia as well. It is also well known that NMDA antagonists can cause psychosis.

In ME/CFS the NMDA is usually not understimulated though, and so this could be a problem. As I have said before, glutamine and glycine are quite intolerable for me, although I haven't tried aspartic acid.

There are definitely differences between aminos in foods and free form, as glutamine in foods don't bother me, but even small doses of the free form does. However, if the amino needs for NAD production are already covered in foods, it seems to me that your point of this not being the rate-limiting factor makes sense.

 

[Rand56]

I did find that I get almost instant relief from gout pain when taking A/C Carbimide (a highly alkaline mineral). But the source where I was getting it from wouldn't sell me a whole bottle, just a packet which would get ruined and was costing more than I liked... so I'm still researching online sources for it after failing to find it locally.

Hi Penny

Have you tried lithium orotate? Lithium is suppose to help dissolve uric acid crystals.