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Urea Cycle: It's a real Pisser - Ammonia, Arginine, Ornithine, Citrulline.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Jorlev, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Thanks for the heads up - I would have had no idea that the hydroxide formula might cause a problem. It seems ButyrAid by Nutricology does not contain hydroxide and is enteric-coated.

    Are you still taking yucca dbkita?
     
  2. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Yep. That's it. Butyrate is also very effective at healing the gut lining.
     
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yeah that might work well. Be good to know how much oxide. Or it may give you the diarrhea with the Mg oxide.

    Hydroxide means it is really alkali. CaOH has pH of 11(?) or something when saturated. People use it to clean the pipes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hydroxide

    No idea why the heck it is in a supplement. Unless ultra tiny amounts are used.

    I am going back and forth on Yucca. Other issues have got my attention at the moment. I can't mix things when I do trials unless I am certain I know what they do else I risk derailing progress.
     
  4. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I gave the Solaray 490mg Yucca capsules a shot this week, taking one with breakfast and another with dinner (high protein meals) and I believe it's been helpful in reducing my excitotoxicity/anxiety. This points to ammonia being an issue for me - and so now I'm left with a lot of questions. Does high ammonia mean my CBS mutation is expressed? Do I need to be concerned about sulfate as well? The CBS info on the heartfixer site suggests a low protein diet, but didn't work well for me in the past, so instead I'm left with supplements to reduce ammonia. I see some studies on yucca that make me wonder if it's unsafe to take daily/long-term. Earlier in the thread someone pointed out OKG to reduce ammonia, but I'm confused as heartfixer tells me to avoid alpha-ketoglutarate. As far as butyrate, I already eat ghee, but perhaps it doesn't contain enough butyrate to make a difference. Heartfixer also recommends GABA, but I cannot take GABA and continue to hold a job - even half a tablet puts me in a stupor (indicative of BBB issues?)

    I'd appreciate any input on this. As of now I'm considering buying the urine test strips in order to quantify my sulfate levels.
     
  5. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    High ammonia almost certainly goes hand in hand with a CBS problem for most of us. But it can also be indicative of urea cycle problems.

    Dr Yasko thinks sulfates themselves lead to fight of flight problems. But no one to my knowledge has gotten a clear answer of exactly why that is the case. I too would love to know the biochemical pathway that leads from high sulfates to high NE.

    The AKG link to the trans-sulfuration pathway as discussed on heartfixer and by Yasko is WRONG! It is alpha-keto-BUTYRATE not AKG. They made a mistake a long time ago and have not changed it. Misleading information.
    On the other hand too much AKG if not processed well can turn into glutamate in principle. However, apparently research has shown that OKG does NOT raise glutamate. To be honest they don't really know the mechanism. All they know is it bumps glutamine very efficiently and at the same time I am pretty sure it lowers ammonia via the ornithine at the very least.

    The 2 x 490 mg of Yucca is way below the hemolysis danger levels. Native Americans in the Southwest eat tons of the stuff. They get into issues at some point, yes. Saponins are kind of controversial anyways. Supposedly most of the Yucca schiderga saponins stay in the gut. But that is hard to confirm and I could see if one has a leaky gut there may be an issue. And yet ... Yucca is often given for a leaky gut. So go figure.

    Yes if GABA does that to you, you have a leaky BBB sorry. Which almost certainly means you have a leaky gut. Sorry again.
     
  6. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Many thanks for the informative response.

    I'll have to give AKG a shot. I try to keep a 2 week buffer period between trying new supplements or the results confound each other.

    Sulfates leading to flight or flight could possibly explain my unexplained stress responses.

    So far yucca is mild positive and no negative, which frankly counts as a major victory to me. I keep waiting for the other shoe to fall. It's mechanism is still unclear to me - the saponins mop up excess ammonia? Or they somehow prevents it from being formed?

    Leaky BBB is not a surprise. It's probably why I react so poorly to free glutamate flooding my bloodstream, as it literally goes straight to my head. I'll have to look into leaky gut - I have no idea what that means. I suppose some of the crap formed in my gut goes where it doesn't belong, pun intended.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    db, is it also possible that dysbiosis contributes to high levels of toxins? The body can only handle so much and it expects the immune system to control the dysbiosis enough that it doesn't have to deal with the continuous toxic assault, even if it's not a lot. If we have existing genetic defects in methylation, it could be enough to cause problems coupled with low-level dysbiosis. Yay or nay?
     
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I am sure things go both ways in terms of toxins and dysbiosis. Dysbiosis is a BIG DEAL that too often gets ignored on these boards. It can cause a lot of problems with inflammation, NE, fatigue, pain, retention of toxins, etc.
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Glad you agree as that makes sense to me. My really BAD anxiety and neurological symptoms started concurrently with my gut starting to act up. I actually can remember the exact day that started.

    Addressing both probably makes sense. Thanks for helping us here and contributing your thoughts.
     
  10. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Reading up on yucca, and finding that it's mechanism for reducing ammonia isn't exactly understood. It's interesting that some animal studies on yucca indicate it binds ammonia, while others indicate it interferes with the gut microorganisms that produce it (decreased proteolysis). I don't see any reason why it couldn't do both.
     
    Gestalt likes this.
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    There doesn't seem to be much information at all about yucca that I've seen unfortunately. I tried the tincture a few weeks ago but I'm not sure if it did anything and I don't have a good feeling about it, just my intuition. My opinion is that it makes more sense if you go after the ammonia-producing substances, SIBO, parasite, and repopulate with probiotics.

    I have been using goldenseal recently and like it so far. Mild but noticeable effect.
     
  12. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Mild but noticeable is also how I'd classify my yucca experience. Can't rule out placebo, obviously, but I'm hopeful. I was concerned that it might have an effect on bowel movements, considering its' area of influence is the gut, but not so far.
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    That's good. Can you elaborate what you've felt from it so far?
     
  14. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    My reactions to Yucca have actually been quite profound. And reproducible. But I cannot say all of them have been good so I am holding off for now.
     
  15. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Less angst and not as easily agitated.
     
  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I will second this. But the negative effect for me seems to be some fatigue both mental and physical at least when I take 490 mg twice a day. Also maybe some skin dryness though that is not absolutely certain.
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    i'm not excited by it because of its supposed steroidal effects. you guys concerned about that at all?
     
  18. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    At these small doses? Not really. Besides the biggest impact would be on estradiol and if anything I am low in that regards.
     
  19. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Hmm, so the other shoe falls. This didn't turn up in any of the reading I did last week. I wonder at what dose it significantly affects hormones? I don't know a lot about this type of thing, but I do know I don't want my test decreased.

    Independent of this info, I had already lowered my daily intake from 980mg (2 capsules) down to approximately 735mg daily (half a capsule x 3). My thinking was that I did want it with each meal, but I didn't want to go up to 3 full capsules. I've done this for 2 days now and the lower dose is continuing to work. I just have to deal with choking down what is essentially sawdust.
     
  20. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Yucca update: Over a month of daily use and yes, I think I am feeling the physical fatigue you mentioned. I was fatigued before, but now it may be slightly worse. It's hard to tell without stopping yucca for a few days, but I honestly don't want to. Having a clearer, calmer head is of more importance to me right now, so I'm going to continue it. Time to start tweaking my B vitamin intake.
     
    Gestalt likes this.

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