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Urea Cycle: It's a real Pisser - Ammonia, Arginine, Ornithine, Citrulline.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Jorlev, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    As one who is A1298C -Ho I'm concerned about low BH4 and the related buildup of Ammonia, Peroxinitrite, Superoxide as a result.

    Came across something interesting today. Apparently, Watermelon (especially the rind) is high in all the cofactors that drive the urea cycle -- Ornithine, Citrulline and Arginine.

    A study indicated that watermelon increased arginine and ornithine 22% and 18% respectively and citrulline is derived but not elevated but that's because it's converted into arginine.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17352962

    As an added bonus, these components in watermelon increase HGH.
    http://www.nutritionalhealthenterprises.com/newsletter_detail.ews?newsletter.ewdid=19

    Any other thoughts on lowering Ammonia, Peroxinitirite, Superoxide and also Phenylalanine (though not part of this cycle) would be appreciated.
     
    taniaaust1 and Helen like this.
  2. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    You might look at butyrate. I'm trying it for insulin resistance but it is supposed to be good for ammonia clearance and the liver as well.

    Ema
     
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yeah I myself just ordered a Cal-Mag enteric coated butyrate. Will have to see how it goes.

    Myself and others have had some success taking Yucca root to reduce ammonia.
    Gestalt has a thread on here where he describes how Yucca was a big benefit to him.
     
  4. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    Wondering if you or anyone know what are the constituents of Yucca Root that make it a powerful ammonia dissipator?
    Does it have cofactors of the Urea Cycle in it?
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    okg-ornithine keto glutarate is a supp supposedly used for its protein sparring effects in muscle wasting conditions etc and can help boost glutamine levels. Not sure how it would work here but worth looking into?
     
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    How does OKG work?
    Researchers are still scratching their heads trying to figure out how OKG works. They have observed that the two components of OKG are precursors to glutamate, which can be converted to glutamine. Glutamine plays a role in regulating protein metabolism. Ornithine is used by the body to make arginine, proline and the polyamines such as putrescine, spermine and spermidine. These play a role in successfully helping cells reproduce and helping to repair wounds. Ornithine is also a component of the urea cycle. Researchers also think that OKG decreases protein breakdown and the markers of protein degradation such as in burn injuries. They suspect that it might stimulate the release of insulin and growth hormone. And lastly; researchers report that the effects seen with OKG are seen when both ornithine and alpha-ketoglutarate are present together but not when they are used separately. 2
    OKG has been studied in both human and animal models and has been shown to be beneficial in several conditions including trauma and compromised health conditions
    http://www.smart-publications.com/a...tarate-OKG-promotes-glutamine-and-muscle-mass
     
  7. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Good info. I just wonder if the positive effects regarding protein catabolism, IGF-1, trauma recovery, etc. all fit with the hypothesis that they raise glutamine since glutamine has also been indicated to give those results as well. The dosing of course may be very different. Ornithine by itself is also by itself a big critical part of the urea cycle. Hence why the urea cycle is otherwise known as the ornithine cycle.

    Thanks for the article.
     
  8. Emootje

    Emootje Senior Member

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    Gondwanaland and Jarod like this.
  9. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    G
    lycerol Phenylbutyrate approved for treatment of excessive ammonia. Notice something in that drugs name?

    Butyrate! Butter up those veggies and bump the Buty!
    http://www.clinicalendocrinologynew...sorders/307fd89283ca43de3eed8422795ed241.html

    Goat's Milk has twice the butyrate that cow's milk has.
    http://www.ebrs.info/sub-par-supplements/171-butyrate.html

    Resistant Starch as good source of Butyrate - Cooking and cooling potato and pasta increases their RS levels.
    http://huntgatherlove.com/content/human-colon-evolution-part-4-secrets-butyrate
    http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/02/resistant-starch-butyrate-eades.html
     
  10. sianrecovery

    sianrecovery Senior Member

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    I wish I had something good and sciency to add. I don't, sadly, but I do love the title of this thread. Well done.
     
    taniaaust1 and Star-Anise like this.
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    anyone know if the steroidal effects of yucca are contributing to any neurological effects?

    more here:
    http://www.journal-inflammation.com/content/3/1/6

    I just received Bodybio's Sodium Butyrate and will trial to see if it has any effect on my anxiety. Anyone know anything about dosing? I am just going to start with 1 capsule a day which is 600mg butyric acid.

    The only thing that I take that helps my anxiety at its core is doxycycline, which can exert that effect in different ways. But for this thread, it is possible the doxy is helping to control gut bugs that are producing ammonia thus leading to anxiety.
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Sodium Butyrate update:
    I took the 1 600mg capsule yesterday afternoon on an empty stomach. I experienced a reduction in general anxiety, increased sleepiness (I rarely feel sleepy), and mild nausea followed by intense bloating. Usually when I get bloating from something the stomach discomfort lasts for days - this was severe but temporary and when it was over it was gone.

    I do overall feel a bit more clear-headed today, and I'm glad that the stomach discomfort was temporary. I will continue taking 1 a day for now. My severe anxiety started concurrently with gut symptoms, so I am trying to experiment with different treatments to see what might be going on in there.

    I feel like I might have more than 1 anxiety-producing process going on, so if the butyrate can reduce one of those causes I can have a better idea of what else might be going on.

    I know that dbkita and adreno have mentioned norepinephrine implicated in their symptoms, so that seems like something interesting to look at. I had trialed Strattera(norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) a few years ago and it did help significantly, but only for a day or two - then I would return to baseline until a higher dose.

    I also tend to get significant anxiety from extended cannabis use. Initially I become hyperfocused and aware but as the days go on, that turns into anxiety. A trial of OLE which I've read here can affect NE would be interesting at some point to see how my symptoms are affected.

    When anxious, it is basically impossible for me to relax my body and mind, with racing thoughts, muscle tension, and heart palps. I wonder if it possible that the methylation cycle is overwhelmed trying to deal with ammonia that it cannot deal with breaking down neurotransmitters? Is that possible?
     
    Jarod likes this.
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    That is calmed you may mean an ammonia connection. Ammonia can also stimulate the NMDA receptor in the brain inducing anxiety. I also get calming effects from Yucca (which I am still tentatively experimenting with on and off).

    Butyrate lowers ammonia. I forget the exact mechanism. So yeah I think your inclination like ammonia is on track.
    Other alternatives are ornithine, Yucca, OKG, AKG, manganese, etc.

    I would be a bit concerned about the bloating and nausea. One thing that bothers me is that I think the butyrates should be enteric coated since they all have either NaOH, CaOH, or MgOH in them which your stomach will detest.
    There is a brand out there called Butyrex or something that is enteric coated. So that may be an option. A CDSA test may also tell if your SCFAs / butyrate are low. Butyrate has some other positive attributes but be cautious about forcing it into the gut when a dysbiosis exists.
     
    Jarod likes this.
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Thanks db - I agree with you about forcing butyrate, as it seems like it's something that should be happening naturally. But at least it is a pointer in the right direction. I've got some yucca on order so will give that a shot. If there is a GI process going on that is producing ammonia (parasites, low-level GI infection), I'd love to be able to try to deal with those and see how my symptoms are affected. I know I have trouble dealing with toxins, but it seems like since my gut started acting up there are more toxins than usual.

    Hope I stumble upon the right answer.

    Actually the reason I really started to suspect ammonia is because of my accidental OD on manganese a few weeks ago. And my beneficial reaction to taking charcoal. Seems like when I'm able to reduce the theoretical ammonia load my methylation cycle is able to work on detoxing my environment.
     
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Sounds like you have an important clue to work on. Remember that Mn also is the cofactor for the citric acid to isocitrate step of the Krebs cycle. So taking that much Mn may have powered the heck out of your Krebs cycle especially if that was a rate limiter. That might have explained your being overly stimulated. So lower levels may be recommended. You have to experiment. And like I said ammonia activates the NMDA receptor so if you control that better you may have less anxiety and / or pain or other NMDA related effects.

    Good luck!
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    http://www.naturalhealthyconcepts.c...roducts.html?gclid=CMLXt4jvobYCFQyg4AodwycA1Q

    would this be safer db?
     
  17. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    I think as we get used to looking for 'supplement' solutions for our problem we sometimes forget that there can be simpler and most probably much more effective natural solutions in the form of food.

    A great source for Butyrate is grass-fed butter, or my preference to avoid casein, grass fed ghee (butter minus the milk solids). You can buy Kerry Gold or Anchor butter and heat/ strain it to get the ghee.

    Anecdotally I've been using it for a few months to help with my gut and have made a lot of progress. I discovered the ammonia plus later - bonus. It's also cheaper and easier to make this a routine (part of your meals) and get the benefits from taking it consistently.
     
    Jarod likes this.
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I was thinking about that this morning - supplementation may be good short-term for proof of concept, but modifying diet to include it regularly is probably better long-term.
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Hey. Why did you start eating ghee for gut? because of butyrate?
     
  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I will call them and see a) if the Ca and Mg are partly as CaOH and MgOH and b) are they enteric coated.
    If the answer is yes to a and no to b then no I would not touch it personally. I think the enteric coated is a big deal. I am not in favor of hydroxides right in the stomach. That being said I have a bottle of Butyrex that is enteric coated but I know has some hydroxides and I STILL have not worked up the courage to try it yet. Some day I will get around to it I suppose.
     

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