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Unexplained exertional dyspnea caused by low ventricular filling pressures: results from clinical invasive cardiopulmonary exercise testing

anciendaze

Senior Member
Messages
1,841
@laxative_mess,

I'm not sure what a doctor means by saying your heart is "stiff". One thing that goes along with the changes seen in iCPET is a thickening of walls and a reduction in the speed with which heart muscle relaxes. This is best measured as an increase in IVRT (isovolemic relaxation time). There may also be remodeling of atria. This is not an immediate danger to life, so cardiologists often note this, then move on to matters with which they are more familiar. They have a drastic solution to blockage of coronary arteries, coronary bypass, but little they can do about the conditions seen along with low fill pressure.

I'll take a look at your iCPET report, and get back later. Please note that I am not a doctor.
 

JollyRoger

Senior Member
Messages
138
Stiff heart sounds like diastolic dysfunction which is often found in older, overweight women with high blood pressure, diabetes or even age.
If your are older you get always a certain degree of stiff heart.
In this cases it can be improved with exercise.
HOw big is your left atrium?
Do you have values like e/e' or e/a?
Probnp is a very important marker for heart failure.
If it's not tested I would do it because it's very sensitive.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I had this invasive CPET procedure done back in 2015 with Dr. Systrom. I have attached a report. Any analysis or dicussion is greatly welcome. I still don't fully understand what is being said in the report, and I'm clueless as to what my next step should be...
RBBB is a right bundle branch block. It sometimes happens in healthy people, but usually not. It should be investigated further to look for the cause.
 

Manganus

Senior Member
Messages
166
Location
Canary islands
I'm afraid this is a common practice with elderly patients, leaving them bedbound. My first episodes began in my teens and 20s, but now I fit the elderly profile doctors expect. I've regularly seen elderly people have episodes of syncope 2 to 3 hours after taking bp medication. Repeated episodes of cerebral hypoperfusion are likely to result in general neurological deterioration, but the medication is justified as avoiding a risk of stroke, which is life-threatening.
I agree!

(I do, like you, think that autonomic dysfunction plays an important part.)
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Interesting part in the interpration:
... given a 1h recovery lactate = 2.8 mM, skeletal muscle mitochondrial dysfunction is suggested.
Mitochondrial dysfunction or disease usually refers to genetic disorders, and can be diagnosed with genetic testing, usually from a muscle biopsy. Blood lactate is sometimes elevated when it shouldn't be, but cerebro spinal fluid (CSF) is more typically elevated, and also can help with diagnosis.

There might be other causes of mitochondrial dysfunction, which could have the same impact, but I'm not sure what they would be or how they would be diagnosed.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
I don't think it's been tested much? Aside from cultured muscle cells producing excess lactate in a petri dish.

Lactate appears to be low or normal pre-exercise, and elevated post-exercise, so far as I'm aware. Or so it was for my exercise testing. Armstrong showed low lactate at rest, and so have others I believe.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Hi,

I had this invasive CPET procedure done back in 2015 with Dr. Systrom. I have attached a report. Any analysis or dicussion is greatly welcome. I still don't fully understand what is being said in the report, and I'm clueless as to what my next step should be...

Also, I recently got another right heart cath done a few weeks ago, and the Dr. who did the procedure was very surprised and told me during the procedure that my heart was stiffer than he expected it to be and sent out some additional bloodwork labs... Does a "stiff" heart fit the clinical picture for CFS/ME?? Or should I be worried?

These are fascinating, thanks for sharing with us. :)
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Lactate appears to be low or normal pre-exercise, and elevated post-exercise, so far as I'm aware.
It's elevated out of the normal range for everyone following sufficient exercise. It's a bit tricky to try to find what's a normal lactate response for a given amount of exertion.

My own observation is that my blood lactate doesn't rise absurdly high after exercise. But it also doesn't start to decline like it should after 5-10 minutes, and even continues to peak multiple times over the following hour or two. There also might be continuing lactate peaks 5-6 hours after the exertion, when I'm fully rested and should be fully recovered.

But I haven't seen research showing if this is typical of ME patients, or if it might suggest a different diagnosis.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
My own observation is that my blood lactate doesn't rise absurdly high after exercise. But it also doesn't start to decline like it should after 5-10 minutes, and even continues to peak multiple times over the following hour or two. There also might be continuing lactate peaks 5-6 hours after the exertion, when I'm fully rested and should be fully recovered.

But I haven't seen research showing if this is typical of ME patients, or if it might suggest a different diagnosis.

My memories tell me that this isn't unusual for patients on first-day exercise testing, but at second-day, their lactate is high.

I remember this because I considered myself a special little snowflake even among CFSers when mine climbed manyfold above normal on my single-day exercise testing, long before I had a chance to be deconditioned. :confused:

[Edit: I've got to get to work but I'll find some citations on this l8r]
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I had this invasive CPET procedure done back in 2015 with Dr. Systrom. I have attached a report. Any analysis or dicussion is greatly welcome. I still don't fully understand what is being said in the report, and I'm clueless as to what my next step should be...

Thank you for sharing your testing with us and I bookmarked your post so I can look at it later (although I will be of no use medically to help interpret it)!

Does a "stiff" heart fit the clinical picture for CFS/ME?? Or should I be worried?

Am sharing this on the even small chance it could be helpful. In Nov 2014, I got flash pulmonary edema from one liter of IV saline and my cardio (at that time) said that this only happens in heart failure (which I do not have) or in cases of "ventricular stiffness". So I had an Echo (both supine and standing) and other testing but was found not to have any ventricular stiffness or diastolic dysfunction, etc.

The whole thing was bizarre and we did not know why it happened until mid 2015 when I first saw my mast cell doctor. He said that when saline (or any fluid) is infused too quickly in a mast cell patient, there can be "third spacing" in which the fluid goes into the abdomen, lungs, etc, (basically places that it is not supposed to go) b/c the membranes are more permeable b/c of histamine (and my histamine levels were 4x above normal when I had the IV saline).

So long story short, is if you have this issue and get an infusion, you would need to have a MUCH slower infusion speed (like 8 hrs vs. 3 hrs). Cardiologists assume that ventricular stiffness is the cause but in my case, it was due to a totally different issue. I am able to do infusions with no issues but now split them into 2-3 days or do a super slow infusion speed.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I had this invasive CPET procedure done back in 2015 with Dr. Systrom. I have attached a report. Any analysis or dicussion is greatly welcome. I still don't fully understand what is being said in the report, and I'm clueless as to what my next step should be...

@laxative_mess I just had a chance to view your iCPET report and it was very interesting as others have shared. Where is Dr. Systrom located and was he able to interpret the test results, or give you treatment recommendations, back in 2015?

It looks like your report showed that you do not have ischemia on ekg (which is what had when I did a treadmill test back in 2014). I did not have ischemia on the Echo portion of test (which was both before and after the treadmill portion) and the ischemia was only on the standing treadmill part on the ekg. So my former cardio felt it was a "false positive" whereas when I switched to a new cardio (also in 2014), he felt it was legit and the overall conclusion was that I was not getting adequate blood perfusion to my lungs and heart, while standing, due to POTS and other reasons (which absolutely matched with my experience). But my treadmill test was very basic and nowhere as elaborate as the iCPET.

It also looks (from your report) that they had you do Pre-CPET spirometry (pulmonary function testing) and that your FVC (forced vital capacity) was 86%. Do you remember if they considered 86% to be normal or low for your age as a pre-exercise FVC score?

Also, I recently got another right heart cath done a few weeks ago, and the Dr. who did the procedure was very surprised and told me during the procedure that my heart was stiffer than he expected it to be and sent out some additional bloodwork labs... Does a "stiff" heart fit the clinical picture for CFS/ME?? Or should I be worried?

I am not sure of the answer to this but was curious if you have been diagnosed with POTS or if you experience shortness of breath when standing/walking (or only with actual exercise)?

Thank you again for sharing your test with us and for any info that you remember! I really appreciate it.
 
Messages
17
Stiff heart sounds like diastolic dysfunction which is often found in older, overweight women with high blood pressure, diabetes or even age.
If your are older you get always a certain degree of stiff heart.
In this cases it can be improved with exercise.
HOw big is your left atrium?
Do you have values like e/e' or e/a?
Probnp is a very important marker for heart failure.
If it's not tested I would do it because it's very sensitive.

Hi @JollyRoger
Is diastolic dysfunction a hallmark of CFS?
Also, I consider myself pretty young still (31), and I sporadically go to the gym (mostly some light weightlifting) even though I fatigue very easily. I'm on the thin side and am not overweight.
I'm unsure how large my left atrium is or what e/e', probnp are... what procedure would tell me this info?

I tried to schedule a followup with the doctor who performed my recent right heart catheter, and he had his assistant call me and say that he wouldn't see me because he deals with pulmonary hypertension and I'm outside of his realm. I could tell when I first met him that he was reluctant to take my case; my medical records are HUUUGE and he could tell I was a complex case. He seemed almost nervous I was going to ask him questions he didn't know the answers to. He tried to cut the conversation short and scoot me along. He had read my iCPET report form 2015 with Dr. Systrom, and I told him that my filling pressures dropped to 0 when I was upright, and he said though he could try and recreate that by having me standup, he'd rather not because there's nothing he could do about it anyway if the mestinon that Dr. Systrom tried didn't work.

He said he's going to send the right heart cath report to my referring doctor and wants him to deal with me instead.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@laxative_mess Thank you for the detailed reply and I did not realize that you were on the west coast and flew all the way to Boston for the iCPET! I am on the west coast as well. I am going to look at the other tests that you attached (but am not sure how helpful I will be and hope that others more knowledgeable than me will give feedback).

This has been my understanding as well-- that an FVC (forced vital capacity) above 80% is like a "passing score" on spirometry testing and below is abnormal. I was getting FVC scores between 66% to 72% for several years until after IVIG and my current FVC score is 84%. I believe in my case the problem is due to weakness of the diaphragm and breathing muscles plus dysautonomia/POTS (but no actual problem with the inside of my lungs per CT scan).

Do you know why his research protocol is to start the patient on Mestinon vs. another med? I tried Mestinon in 2014 at a very low dose (1/8 of a 60 mg pill) and had a horrible reaction to it. I also did poorly with Florinef in 2014. However, I do well with Atenolol, Midodrine, and salt stick tablets.

The image you tried to post in the quote above re: autonomic testing did not work and it just shows as {IMG} for me but I cannot see what it says. Where on the west coast did you do your autonomic testing?

I agree that is confusing and I have no idea how to interpret it. I think I might have already asked this (but missed your answer)... do you have any shortness of breath with standing and walking or only with actual exercise?

I am going to look at your tests but I am the last person to have any clue if they represent typical ME/CFS and am still not sure if anyone knows. I was certain, as were several doctors, from 2013-2016 that I had ME/CFS but now believe that I do not. So I am hoping that others with more knowledge of CPET will jump in re: your results.
 
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Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
Unexplained exertional dyspnea caused by low ventricular filling pressures: results from clinical invasive cardiopulmonary exercise testing (Oldham et al., 2016)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4860548/

This paper might now be considered a classic in that it clearly showed that you can have exercise intolerance without any heart or lung problems. (which many people had doubted)

The patients with this form of exercise intolerance have an abnormally low blood pressure in the veins that return blood from the extremities to the heart. This phenomenon results in "inadequate venous return" and "inadequate Right Atrial Pressure (RAP)", which is a form of "preload failure". (Clearly, there are lots of different jargon to describe the same fundamental phenomenon.)

Because of this, the flow of blood from the extremities to the heart is simply too slow to keep up with any exertion, regardless of how hard the heart and lungs try to work.

The following are some critical points from the article's discussion about patients who have this type of exercise intolerance without any heart or lung problems:
These results cannot be explained by either submaximal effort or deconditioning.
[...]
Presuming adequate intravascular volume and similarly functioning respiratory and muscle pumps, the etiology of inadequate venous return may be a consequence of impaired venoconstriction of capacitance vessels in the impaired population.
(emphasis added)


1639797413344.png



So how does "impaired venoconstriction of capacitance vessels" lead to exercise intolerance?
  1. The veins that return blood from the muscle tissues to the heart, known as "capacitance vessels", fail to constrict as they normally would during exercise, leading to a low blood pressure inside these veins.
  2. This means that blood is not being efficiently pulled out of the "capillary beds" that provide blood to the muscle tissues.
  3. Some of the blood may end up being pulled through an "arterio-venous shunt" that bypasses the "capillary beds" and muscle tissues altogether.
  4. The end result of this situation is that insufficient blood is being provided to the "capillary beds" that provide blood and oxygen to the muscle and other tissues.
  5. Because the muscle tissues are not receiving enough oxygen to support aerobic metabolism, they pass the "anaerobic threshold" and switch to using anaerobic metabolism, which doesn't require oxygen and generates lactic acid.
  6. Although it was not discussed in this paper, if the tissues fail to receive a consistent supply of oxygen over time, the small nerve fibers in those tissues may die, since nerve fibers (specifically, axons) must receive a consistent supply of oxygen and nutrients to survive. When the small nerve fibers die, it is called "Small Fiber Neuropathy" or SFN.

So, why would the veins that return blood from the muscle tissues to the heart fail to constrict as they normally would during exercise? Normally, the autonomic nervous system would constrict these veins as soon as vigorous exercise commences. The failure of the autonomic nerves to constrict these veins is therefore a form of dysautonomia.

1642042129497.png


The authors talk specifically about patients with postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), another form of dysautonomia. (It is common to find multiple types of dysautonomia together.) They considered whether low blood volume might be the issue, so they gave patients a saline infusion before exercise to increase their blood volume:
We further show that POTS patients had persistently low [venous return of blood to the heart] despite receiving an average of 1 L of normal saline before the test, suggesting that venous capacitance is the issue rather than total [blood] volume.
(emphasis added)


But the authors noted that the failure of veins to constrict might not be the only contributor to the observed exercise intolerance. The authors also considered the possibility that arterio-venous shunting, perhaps also due to dysautonomia, might deprive the muscle tissues of blood flow. Furthermore, the authors also considered the possibility that impaired muscle metabolism, such as problems with the mitochondrial energy cycle, might also contribute to the exercise intolerance:
Interestingly, impaired patients had decreased systemic oxygen extraction normalized to [Hb], as compared to normal ones (0.81 ± 0.12 vs. 0.87 ± 0.09, P = 0.04), which is consistent with abnormal blood flow distribution to metabolically inactive vascular beds (e.g., impaired splanchnic vasoconstriction with exercise), shunting past oxidative muscle fiber capillary beds, or intrinsic mitochondrial dysfunction.
(emphasis added)


Lastly, the authors noted that infection or inflammation might cause or contribute to this special type of exercise intolerance:
Anecdotally, several of these patients report a severe illness before symptom onset, in many cases occurring 1 year or more before their evaluation, suggesting that an infectious or inflammatory etiology may contribute.
(emphasis added)


P.S. Finally, it is important to remember that exercise intolerance is not the same as exertion intolerance:
Exercise Intolerance vs. PEM/Exertion Intolerance
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/exercise-intolerance-vs-pem-exertion-intolerance.86876/

EDIT: updates, corrections
 
Last edited:

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
The authors also published a follow-up paper showing the diagnostic importance of iCPET in investigating shortness of breath (dyspnea) without exertion. In their clinic, which received referrals for shortness of breath, 21% of the diagnoses given were for dysautonomia:

Invasive cardiopulmonary exercise testing in the evaluation of unexplained dyspnea: Insights from a multidisciplinary dyspnea center (Huang et al., 2020)
https://doi.org/10.1177/2047487317709605
Excerpt:
Huang et al. 2020 said:
Background
Unexplained dyspnea is a common diagnosis that often results in repeated diagnostic testing and even delayed treatments while a determination of the cause is being investigated. Through a retrospective study, we evaluated the diagnostic efficacy of a multidisciplinary dyspnea evaluation center (MDEC) using invasive cardiopulmonary exercise test to diagnose potential causes of unexplained dyspnea.

Methods
We reviewed the medical records of all patients referred with unexplained dyspnea to the MDEC between March 2011 and October 2014. We assessed the diagnostic efficacy before and after presentation to the MDEC.

Results
During the study period a total of 864 patients were referred to the MDEC and, of those, 530 patients underwent further investigation with invasive cardiopulmonary exercise test and constituted the study sample. The median age was 57 (44–68) years, 67.2% were women, and median body mass index was 26.22 (22.78–31.01). A diagnosis was made in 530 patients including: exercise pulmonary arterial hypertension of 88 (16.6%), heart failure with preserved ejection fraction of 94 (17.7%), dysautonomia 112 (21.1%), oxidative myopathy of 130 (24.5%), primary hyperventilation of 43 (8.1%), and other 58 (10.9%). The time from initial presentation to referral was significantly longer than time to diagnosis after referral for non-standardized conventional methods versus diagnosis through MDEC using invasive cardiopulmonary exercise test (511 days (292–1095 days) vs. 27 days (13–53 days), p < 0.0001). In a subgroup analysis, we reviewed that patients referred from cardiovascular clinics were more likely to have a greater number of diagnostic tests performed and, conversely, patients referred from pulmonary clinics were more likely to have a greater number of treatments prescribed before referral to MDEC.

Conclusions
As a result of this retrospective study, we have evaluated that a multidisciplinary approach that includes invasive cardiopulmonary exercise test dramatically reduces the time to diagnosis compared with traditional treatment and testing methods.
(emphasis added)